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Ep. 130 – Brian Howie, Host of the Great Love Debate

Today’s guest is the incredible Brian Howie, the creator of the highly acclaimed podcast “The Great Love Debate,” which is known as the world’s number one dating and relationship podcast. Brian has earned the title of America’s number one dating enthusiast through his extensive knowledge and expertise in the field.

For our listeners who are either going through or have gone through divorce, Brian has some valuable advice to offer. He understands the challenges and emotional turmoil that come with this life transition and provides guidance on how to navigate the dating world with confidence and resilience.

When it comes to loving again and rebuilding trust after divorce, Brian offers practical strategies and insights. He emphasizes the importance of self-love and healing, as well as taking the time to understand one’s own needs and desires before entering into a new relationship.

Overall, Brian’s expertise and passion for helping others find love and happiness make him the perfect guest for this episode. Tune in to gain valuable insights and inspiration on how to navigate the world of dating and relationships after divorce.


Jeff: Hello, everybody. Welcome to episode 130. And today we have a very, very special guest. He’s the creator of the podcast The Great Love Debate, and he is Brian Howie. So if you’re ready, let’s get started.

Doreen: Are you ready to create a life that’s better than ever before? We are Doreen Yaffa and Jeff Wilson, and we are here to give you the strategies you need to create the life after divorce that you deserve and desire. As partners both in marriage and coaching, we use our expertise as well as our own personal experiences to help you make the next chapter of your life the best chapter.

Jeff: Hey, Brian, how are you today?

Brian: Good. How are you? Well, thanks for having me.

Jeff: Well, we love having you here? Welcome to life after divorce coaching Doreen’s next to me. How are you?

Doreen: Hi everybody. Hey, how are you?

Jeff: All team is here.

Brian: Wow. Pressures on

Doreen: Pressures on

Jeff: No pressure at all. So world’s number one dating and relationship podcast

Brian: Yes. I’m doing it a long time.

Jeff: Tell me a little bit about it.

Brian: Well, you know, I was always curious about the dynamic between men and women about 11 years ago I wrote a semi tongue in cheek dating book called How to Find Love in 60 Seconds and raised, you know a lot of questions about the dynamic between men and women. My agent at the time said rather than do a traditional book tour with like, 20 people and Barnes and Noble, why don’t you raise some of the questions that the book raised in, like a theater, like a town hall stuff. That’s like a promotional stunt. We’re supposed to do one night. And it was ten years ago yesterday, I have now done the live version of my, you know, 435 times in 136 cities in 13 countries, podcast started about a year after that and you know, I would say that my job is to raise the questions, not necessarily find the answers, but the act of raising the questions gives a lot of answers. And we’ve just had these conversations all over the world so many times that you know, we have a pretty good handle on the state of the date.

Jeff: That’s great. Well, happy, happy 10 year anniversary.

Brian: Thank you.

Jeff: Here’s to 10 years more.

Doreen: Absolutely. Congratulations.

Brian: Thank you.

Doreen: Let’s talk about your top three tips. What have you learned? You know, most of our listeners, that’s.

Jeff: Or the top three questions.

Rian: Well, you know, it pretty much comes down to this couple of things, the answers whether you were in a committed relationship and you’re not quite where you want to be, are you getting divorced? The answer is almost always lie outside of your comfort zone. Almost always, the three words that I tell everybody to get rid of and never use again are the words, not my type. If you’re over 30 and you’re still single, you have no type. Your type is not working out for you and what I mean by that is all you really know what is not. You’re basically going down the path of the same patterns and the same routines and the same preferences because it’s like this is what I always imagine it looked like in my head and when people tend to loosen those things up and you know, I always tell people that if you’re not comfortable going out with a type of person physically that you didn’t find attractive, whatever, like maybe start by like wearing a collar that you don’t normally wear, order something off a menu that you didn’t normally order, you will slowly loosen up these boundaries that you placed on yourself and recognize the possibilities that around you everywhere. And people think there’s not any possibilities out there, you know, either they’re stuck in the bad relationship they have. You know, you ask people all the time. You know, they always say I would rather be alone than be in a bad relationship. Well, of course they don’t look at the possibility of being a good relationship as equal to those two. They’re like the choices are bad relationship, no relationship. And the other choice good relations like Adam, Pluto somewhere.

And so what we always try to do is let people understand that just because things have not worked out before or just because you know it’s almost never that you haven’t met the right person. It’s almost always that you haven’t been the right person so you have to make the change starting with. You can’t change society. You can’t say all men suck. You can’t say the women are crazy. Whatever like. Start there. It doesn’t mean you’re flawed and it doesn’t mean you’re broken. Start with some change, do some work and you be just, you know surprised what you discovered by yourself.

Doreen: Get outside that comfort zone, right?

Jeff: Because I was going to say either your type doesn’t exist or the problem is you’re nobody’s type.

Brian:  I mean, I always say people ask me all the time, like, what’s your type? And I’m like. That she likes me. We start there. Everything else is negotiable. Like that’s my like, deal breaker. If she doesn’t like me it’s probably not going to work out, but yeah, you start there and then people are like, I need this, this and this. You could think of 20 things on a checklist, and that leaves like 900 things that you haven’t even thought about. You have to be willing to go down that road and you know who you are at 20 and 30 and 40, you should be evolving and you should be changing. You want somebody who’s kind of willing to go along not just on your journey, but on their own journey. You know, sort of independent of you and be able to support and respect and honor all that. And a lot of people are not like, they’re like I need this person just like this fully formed. They need to understand that I like the Denver Broncos and we’re going to watch this every Sunday. And I’m like, why, why do you need somebody just like you or need somebody that respects who you are.

And all that kind of stuff. And we’ve learned that, you know, there’s our two fundamental things that we learned all over the world and that no matter where we do the great love debate we’ve done it in Tel Aviv and we’ve done in Sydney, we done in Shanghai, we’ve done all over the place.

The women want the men to try harder and the men want the women to make it easier. That is the crux of the disconnect. And so if we took like 1/2 step towards each other again, you know the women we’re shooting a 12 foot basket now because you need us less, you know, fundamentally the women need the men left and the men have the need to be needed.

Doreen: Right, right.

Brian: The other issue is that the women look for red flags and the men look for green lights, OK? And so the women are going into, especially ones who’ve got on a relationship, special ones that are divorced. They are going into a situation looking for like either it’s this is too good to be true. This feels good. What’s wrong with, you know, all of these stuff and the men are just like,  does she like me?

When we go out again, is she laughing at my jokes. Like it’s a different perspective when if we just, like, learn from our past relationships and learn our patterns and sort of move forward positively with hope. And so we’re all selling hope here, you guys. We guys were selling hope. And if you can give people hope that if they are open to possibilities and recognize them and act on them and don’t kill them. Anything is a possibility.

Doreen: Open those possibilities. Sometimes wonder if it’s a number game. The more people you meet, the more possibilities, right?

Brian: Well, you know that’s funny. You know the title of my book is how to find love in 60 seconds and it wasn’t about a, you know, quickie in a bathroom. It wasn’t about that. It was basically about there are 60 second windows of time in a day where you could choose to engage, you know, with somebody around you. And I ask people all the time if when you leave your house, everybody who leaves their house in the course of a day to go to the gym, they go to work, they go the store or whatever you are within 10 yards of 1000 people of the opposite sex every single day. Thousands of people, OK?

So I ask people all the time if you think that you had a chance to engage with all 1000 people for 60 seconds, how many could you possibly have some spark chemistry with? Like and they’re always like, I don’t know, nothing like 4. And I’m like, OK, let’s just say it’s 4. Four out of 1000 seems very needle in a haystack, but if you look at it like you’re within four people that if you engage with them, you possibly could fall in love with them every single day. That’s like 1500 people a year. Then all you have to do is leave your house to be around them and then they look at it that way and it’s like, ohh, I forget about the 996 people that you would not be right for. And understand there’s those 1245 that are within your sort of ecosystem. All you have to do is leave your house and people don’t want to leave their house.

Doreen: People don’t.

Brian: They don’t

Doreen: They’re stuck in the cave

Brian: And there’s too much stimuli. You know you can play, you can watch your Netflix and play with your dog and drink your wine and have a reasonably OK existence thing. You know what COVID did? A lot of people were like, I don’t wanna date anymore. It’s too hard or whatever, and it being forced to be sort of out of society. Fraction of people liked it, but a lot of people like you know what? I need the engagement I need a live body.

Doreen: Right. I think that it’s people. It’s very easy to be busy at home, right? Engaged on social media and all that.

Brian: You know, when I was growing up, we were growing up with four channels, you know.

Doreen: Right. Same here. We knew it.

Brian: You know, it was different. The amount of stimuli you could bring up everything you want, and then they get hooked on video games and **** and just sort of stimuli. They’re like, why do I need to date?

You know, AI is making it. That’s the real coming storm. Like somebody’s going to be able to you know, kid who’s 18 years old is going to take a picture of a girl who’s a freshman in college, make a realistic avatar of her. She’s going to talk to him home by his name, telling he’s awesome and give him a reasonably satisfying experience. He’s never gonna ask anybody out. And you can’t say it’s not as good as he doesn’t know. It’s not as good. He never had it. There’s very little risk. It’s like a video game to him. I can win this. There’s no money involved. This is fine. And that’s the danger.

Jeff: That’s very interesting when you say about not doesn’t know anything better. You know they experienced it. And when you say they don’t get out anymore. They haven’t experienced you know going out with your friends to play in the playground.

Not knowing anything else, why would you want to be home? There’s no social media, there’s no TV. There’s nothing. Why would you wanna even go home? Unless the sun was setting when you had to be home by the sunset.

Brian: Exactly. You wanted every possible excuse to get out to the world.

Doreen: Remember, our parents always used to tell us just go out and play.

Brian: Just go play. Go play

Jeff: Mine was good playing the street.

Brian:  I used to entertain myself. I throw like a tennis ball against the wall for six hours.

Doreen: Ohh yeah.

Brian: II didn’t need an iPad. I didn’t need any of that stuff? But you know, I just did a whole episode on my podcast about I think the title of this is you need to get divorced.

Doreen: I saw that one I haven’t listened to it.

Brian: You know, I asked you once as a divorce attorney. Too many people getting divorced are not enough. Right. And you’re like right finds this thing. So you can have as many loves as you want in a lifetime but you only get one lifetime and a lot of people are wasting that.

You know, I’ll think about it when the youngest turns 18 or this is fine, or I don’t want to go back out there dating and then 5, 10, 20-30 years go by, and then you’re like, what did I miss out on, you know? And those are the opportunities and the possibilities.

Doreen: One of the things I always say repeat throughout our episodes is this is not a dress rehearsal. This life, I mean, you get one shot at being here on Earth. That’s it. And so every day you have to live it to your fullest and you have to put yourself out there and you have to take chances.

I mean, who wants just an OK existence, right. Our listeners, we’re pushing them to really experience greatness to create the life after divorce that just they’re going to go back and they’re going to say like, wow, I really gave it like 100% now.

Brian: And a lot of people look at, you know, coming out of a marriage or even being in the dating pool as like, a game of musical chairs. And they’re not gonna get a seat. There’s a lot of seats you have to be in the game. Listen to the part of the musical chairs that’s about the music. Right. And a lot of people won’t do that. And they’re like I said, it all comes back to understanding that your comfort zone oftentimes is a dangerous place is the thing that’s holding you back from what you want to do, you know.

Doreen: So I think one of the big takeaways from that is to sit back and really think about what that looks like for them and you know, are you stuck in your comfort zone and what would it look like? Explore what it would look like to really get out there and try something different, you know, try, try dating someone that maybe isn’t in your comfort zone? Try it on for size. See how it works. You just never know.

Jeff: You know in your description of your podcast, you asked the question, why is everybody still single and you make it sound so easy to figure this out.

Brian: You know, I also say that as somebody who, you know made it to 50 and never been married, which is a huge red flag and it should be. It should be OK.

Doreen: Tell us all the reason.

Brian: I mean. There need to be the reason you can’t just been like I was busy with my career. You have to own it. I realized cause I met people like me in that pool, and if you can’t do like I don’t believe marriage or whatever. Like there has to be a reason. Well, I had to go to therapy and do the work and all that stuff. And you know my parents were married for, I don’t know, 55 years or something. I didn’t think they liked each other. So the examples, what they what I had, I didn’t trust their love for each other, which means I didn’t necessarily trust their love for me, which means I didn’t trust the concept. And so it took me a lot of years to do that. And then so then it was like, OK, in order to trust this concept, I had to define it.

So I tell everybody before you find love. You have to define what it is for yourself. What does it feel like and for me, I narrowed it down to when there’s nothing I’m doing that I wouldn’t rather be doing with her. Doesn’t mean I have to do with her, but I’d rather have her part of her tell her about this, or whether include this when I have that feeling. That’s very tangible to me, that’s it.

I want that feeling and a lot of people are like, oh, that’s not quite fireworks enough for me. But love is a nebulous concept, you know, I love pizza. I love the New York Giants. I love that we throw it around a lot. But when it comes down to romantic love you have to sort of define it in order to find it. This is the feeling that I want with another person. This is how this enhances my life. And then and then when I find that OK, then let’s figure out the relationship part of it.

Jeff: How do they define it? I mean, if you’re not learning it from your parents experience or social media, or the television, these movies that sensationalize love, you know.

Brian: People learn it from the fairy tales, which is realistic. They learn it from ROM Coms, you know there’s a lot of you gotta kiss a lot of frogs in those fairy tales. There’s a lot of bad stuff in the fairy tales.

Doreen: Well, and I love the fairy tales that and they lived happily ever after. We talked about that too, you know, because you know, happily ever after. Well, listen, marriage is going to be good and bad. It’s just. You know more good than bad, hopefully, but it’s consistently, you know changes. You have your good days, your bad days, your good years, your bad years?

Brian: And it’s really, you know, the rich or poor, sickness and in health, if you thought about like well, let’s talk about what that means exactly.

Doreen: Let’s define that.

Brian: People kind of, well, we’ve been dating for six months, so that means we should probably take the step in these personal and societal and familial pressures like, oh, and everything is like Lily padding. I’m going from this to this. Then with the kids or whatever. And then you especially as a woman sort of finds yourself generally in your early 40s when a lot gotta have a baby, the hormones, wherever you find yourself there. And then you’re like. What? Where am I? What do I need? What do I want? And a lot of people are afraid to have that conversation and a lot of times the man in these relationships.

Because she’s a little confused and maybe he is due. They’re not getting any sort of positive reinforcement back in their lives and they’re kind of guessing what she’s thinking, right. You know, we don’t know. You’re thinking always know, is what the last girl liked. And we probably found that out way too late.

And we’re very bad at communicating and communicating confidently. Here is what I want. Here is what I need. In a way that is, you know, sometimes that’s a smack on the nose, but a lot of times it’s a pat on the nose, you know I love it when you do this. We know we hear the complaints as men. A lot, a lot faster and looser than they are about the praise, and we’re widely insecure, you know.

Doreen: That’s true.

Jeff: It’s true, true. So did we get the answer? Why is everybody still single?

Brian: You know, it’s fear, it’s fear. It’s fear to get outside your comfort zone. It’s fear, you know, men are a lot of times afraid of being rejected. Women are afraid of being hurt, and those things are what prevent us from moving forward from the last relationship and not moving towards the new relationship in that zone that we all design as this is, I believe that that is really rooted in fear.

Jeff: Makes a lot of sense, so you know we’re dealing with men and women that are either going through divorce have gone through divorce and that fear may be multiplied. The not being heard again might be multiplied. What kind of advice could you give to some of our listeners?

Brian: Well, understand that a lot of people, you’re not the only one that feels this way, and especially now you know, if you’ve been married 15 20 years and you’re coming out now. Especially the dating landscape. There’s no online dating like we could pick you up for a date. Can’t do that anymore. You know, I’m not going to tell them where we live. All that, like there’s and that’s fear based dating. It’s what if I don’t? What if I’m bored in 15 minutes? How do I get out of here, we didn’t used to date that way.

We didn’t. We used to like give the opportunity to breathe like, that’s not a good, you know good thing either. So a lot of people come out and they’re like, Oh my God, especially the women, like, do I have to get a tattoo? I’m like, no, you don’t. You could just be yourself. You’re not trying to be 25 again. You’re trying to be who you are and understand that a lot of people, there’s a real comfort we’ve had. I don’t know, especially in our live shows, we’ve had dozens of people. Meet and get engaged. And being serious relationships just being in the crowd at the same time. We’re not. We’re not matching people up. It’s just the like the number two way that people meet and fall in love now is online dating. Number one is still like your real friends, your real social network. Number 2 is online dating. I didn’t know what number two was before online dating? It was church.

Doreen: Ohh interesting.

Brian: And it wasn’t about hitting on somebody. It was about coming together. And if I would be able to approach you at church. And if I told you, you look nice, you would think I was hitting her. You wouldn’t.

Doreen: Right. It was a safe place.

Brian: It was.

Jeff: Life value.

Brian: Exactly. And we share one thing in common, we come to this place and whatever, and then this one bond can lead to a conversation or whatever. That’s another thing. So that’s just getting out of your house and being, you know, around that. And if you’re getting divorced and you’re not comfortable being, if you’re a woman not comfortable being around, you know men for a while. Strange men. Just go to Home Depot and start asking questions. Just start asking questions. You say men go to bed bath and beyond, but they went out of business, grabs 2 tails and these match and you suddenly like being learning to engage with the opposite sex again for no reason at all. You know, not with the pressure of date. Go to networking things. Volunteer. Get out around. You have to get used to that again.

Doreen: You know what I noticed? You know what I noticed? And I don’t know if it’s just in Boca Raton where we live or if this is replete throughout the country. Is that people just don’t look at each other anymore. They don’t say hello. They you know what I’m saying? Like I consider you and I Jeff and also you, Brian, I consider us outgoing friendly people and I noticed that I was just at Whole Foods. Know you’re standing literally next to somebody just inches apart looking at and you can see the person feel the person there and there’s not even an engagement. I look over and they just look down they will not look up.

Brian: We say get your head out of your apps. We say that like we walk around like this and it seems strange to engage with people are like, why are you talking to me? I need some sort of online.

Doreen: Like, what do you want?

Brian: What do you want? That’s a good point. You bring that up. We, you know, I bring this up not to date any of us too much but back when we were kids and we went for long car rides with our parents, we didn’t have iPads in the backseat to entertain us. We had to do things like count blue cars.

Doreen: Yes, I remember the counting.

Brian: So I brought up the 1000 people a day that you’re around if you try and count 10 people with blue eyes or brown eyes or green eyes, not only will you start to notice everybody around you again, everybody around you will start to notice you back. And if we start to sort of notice each other again, it’s terrible that that’s the first step we have to take. Like people exist in these bubbles start noticing the people around you. And I think that opens some possibilities.

Doreen: I agree.

Jeff: It’s becoming normal though. That’s why if you say hi to somebody, they  look at you funny like what’s wrong with you?

Doreen: But you know what? When we were visiting our kids who went to College in the South and we were there all the time when Megan was doing her volleyball games, we were there every other week, right? It would be so interesting because we get on the plane and we’d be headed to Asheville or Charlotte and automatically people were more engaging. I don’t know if it was about the South.

Brian: A lot of us New Yorkers here. A question and an answer is a conversation. So I tell people all the time that you should be able to ask a question of anyone. Where if you were married, your spouse would not get mad at you for asking that question. I mean, if you’re at Starbucks and you just go up to them and say, hey, they serving the Carmel machiato here, somebody’s gonna ask that question, right. If you have someone and said what size of those jeans your spouse would be mad.

Doreen: Ohh, of course.

Brian: Sort of the same things. What is a reasonable question that somebody would answer, like that’s a pretty good start. You know grab a head of lettuce and say can I BBQ this to someone else? It’s like maybe they’re wrong, but people want to do that. They do want to give answers. They do want to help. They do want to do that and people are afraid. Like if I talk to them or they gonna think of me. Or if they ask me something, what if I don’t have the answer? You know I love when people ask me for directions because it makes me feel like I’m a local.

Doreen: I used to play this game with the girls, with my girls watch and see how many people I can get to smile and we would be like in the airport and everybody have their heads down walking around, just getting to where they’re getting in their gates. And I would just start walking around and just smiling at somebody, it’s amazing when you smile at somebody, how they can’t help but smile back.

Brian: I agree, or a lot of the men make a mistake of telling a woman to smile. They don’t like that, but if I went up to you and said, was that a smile? She’s probably gonna smile. Like you have to, we are we. What happens in divorce and marriage. The fantasy of the happily ever after the marriage once you get divorced, that is gone for the most part. You now know what it’s like and it’s not what you were promised in the brochure. OK, but being able to sort of find that playful flirtatious, innocence if you want that, you probably used to have about that. Get that back first before you go and jump in your 2nd, 3rd, 4th marriages like.

Doreen: For sure.

Brian: You revisit like, what did that feel like to you, that mystery, that hope and all those kind of things, and takes a lot to get that back again? I’ve never been married. So I’m still very hopeful.

Doreen: I think you’re right. You got to get back to that place like really discover what that looks like for you?

Jeff: Well, that was one of my questions. I was gonna ask you is how do you get back the? Let’s not start with love. Let’s just say, how do you get back to trust? How do you get back the intimacy?

Brian: That’s a good point. Trust is a bad thing, especially when you’ve been burned and you have every right to proceed with caution and you have to have every right to ask the question. I think you cannot be afraid to ask the questions that you need to be comfortable and the person who you are dating with early on, and especially they want you to be comfortable. They want you to hear that it’s when you, when you kind of you know, go, I’m afraid to say anything, right? And then you’re three months in and suddenly you start asking everything. And they’re like, she’s crazy, she didn’t used to care about that, you know, early on, just been like, listen, I have been burned. This is what I need like.

Why did? Why is this? Why is that like? I think if you ask these questions in a non-accusatory non and you kind of own why you need to know the information. I think every you know. Somebody, e-mail me the other day, and they’re like, how do you feel about, you know? A guy or girl saying I don’t really want you to communicate with your exes or girls online or whatever. And I’m like, listen, if you’re saying it like, I want to feel comfortable with you and I’m going through this and you ask in the way that it is an accusatory and like this is what I need. I think, all of us are willing to do just about anything.

Doreen: It’s all in the delivery, right?

Brian: It is.

Doreen: It’s the delivery.

Jeff: Well, they say in marriage or even divorce it the communication is probably the number one reason that people you know fail in relationships is lack of communication.

Doreen: Well, I think it’s the way they communicate and also the lack of communication. We were just talking about that the other day in our relationship. You know, we’ve been married going on 15 years and right now I would say that we could use a little communication.

Brian: Sometimes you take things for granted, and I know them and whatever. Well, they might not be exactly the same ss they were 38 or whatever it is you know, and I think you have to have the check-ins and you have to continue to date and you have to continue to do all these things and you have to tell her she’s beautiful. And like, I think he can’t just be like he knows he doesn’t know. She doesn’t know.

Doreen: Right, right.

Brian: And saying it, you know, I always think you’re better off asking one too many questions than one too few. Like if you need to know this and it’s like bothering you or whatever, just don’t accuse and that’s a skill. You know that’s not easy to say, because even if you’re really not trying to be accused or the other person can interpret it in any way they want. Cause it might be like you know my ex used to ask me stuff like that and I didn’t understand. It’s a balance and it’s hard to find. So when you’re in this new relationship, you have to almost everybody if you’re, you know, over 35 and you’re either still in the dating pool or getting back in the dating pool. We all have experience pain and heartbreak and disappointment and all that kind of stuff. That’s fine and you have to be like I do have that. Here’s where I want to move past that. Can we just talk about this?

Doreen: Absolutely, yeah, that’s great advice.

Jeff: When is it too soon to ask for a blood sample and saliva test?

Brian: Between the edamame and the entree.

Jeff: There you go.

Brian: I know that’s why, like a woman’s, like, when’s it too soon to ask for the credit score. You know, these are reasonable conversations. A lot of people are afraid to ask you know, there’s this whole theory like don’t talk about ex relationships. Well, if you’re divorced, there’s a big difference between, you know, we share custody and he’s my best friend and we’re in court every Wednesday.

Doreen: Right, right.

Brian: There are a lot of variables at that where I tried to kill him. And I like, I want to know the good and the bad, and if they only you know, every date, every relationship you have to kind of look at as it’s a learning experience. What did you learn from this about him? You yourself how to date all that kind of stuff and sharing that information tends to go a long, long way.

Jeff: We share a lot of our lives with our listeners. Because her ex is a very, very good friend of ours because we co-parented all the kids. He co-parented my son and I co-parented his daughters and I think that’s a great example of  how to get along with your ex. Whether you get along with them or not.

Brian: Does he pull you aside and say watch out when dark.

Doreen: Well, well, no. Listen what happened? We got married in five months. So not that I would recommend that. OK. It just happened. I mean, we’re 15 years in, so something worked out well, but when we were dating, I got my ex on the phone. His name is Sam. And I handed the phone. I said, listen, I want you to tell him everything bad. I’m going to walk out of the room. You just tell him everything he needs to know.

Jeff: Three hours later.

Doreen: Three hours later, right, and he still married me anyhow.

Brian: That’s awesome. That’s a great. That’s a great story.

Jeff: He gave me some advice. I took it to heart. I still married her.

Brian: Did you know what he told you? Did you ask?

Jeff: No.

Brian: Good for you.

Jeff: And we became great friends, right? He’s that he’s that type of guy. And I think you describe him as a great friend. Maybe not the greatest husband, but a great friend.

Doreen: No. I always feel so blessed because I have the most by far amazing father for my children. The must he is the best and I have a great husband. So good for me.

Brian: Right. And if you could you were able to like carve something off and like this is what I got out of this that has value to me and these people who are like Oh my God, I hate him or like you did have these children. And your DNA combined to make children, I assume you love. Like focus on that.

Doreen: Exactly

Jeff: The other that we focus a lot on in our podcast is failures are necessary to be successful in life. You know, every failure is not to be looked at as a failure, but it is a stepping stone to success. So if you have that issue with your ex and that relationship failed. I believe that person is learning to be a better whatever, whether it’s a boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, I think that a learning experience can be looked on as a positive.

Brian: Taught this up in a podcast. That boyfriends and girlfriends break up and get back together all the time. Husband and wives almost never do. And somebody’s like, once the paperwork gets involved. Once the lawyers get involved and the money gets involved it just goes to a different place.

Doreen: Well, it’s very true though. I mean, one of the things I recall distinctly was that we got lawyers, my ex and I, and that was the biggest mistake. I remember dropping the kids off having this, I call it Ajuda feeling in my stomach, calling him up and saying we got to meet at Starbucks. We got to figure this out. The lawyers are just ruining it because we already had such a great foundation. It wasn’t perfect but we were moving in the right direction of a peaceful divorce and they were just putting all the fire in and I said no and I know better. You know, I’m a divorce attorney. I know better. And I said no more.

Brian: It’s you know, find the peace. Calm the noise and you know, figure out a way to move forward, which is easier said than done. I get this.

Doreen: Well, it is. But you know what? It’s amazing. Just like the smiling when you smile at somebody and you smile back if you just put that olive branch out. You’d be amazed at what you can do with that your ex.

Brian: And a lot of people look for this, you know, magical concept of closure. Probably never gonna get exactly the answer you want or hear. And so you gotta stop chasing it. You just kind of kind of draw the line in the sand and figure out a way to move forward again. Easier said than done, but that’s the whole part.

Jeff: Take that first step.

Doreen: So tell us how many listeners do you have? Because I want to hear the numbers, I mean, because I just know they’re.

Brian: Oh, God, millions. I don’t know. We probably average about 85,000 a week. Something like that we’ve had. I don’t know, 300,000 live people come to our shows like, but I’ll do it a long time, you know. And I got interviewed by Nightline on ABC a couple years ago. And the reporter says to me. We stopped filming and. She goes this. Whole thing about you and I go what do you mean she goes? Are you really engaging all these people really find out and I go.

I think you’re right. Like I nobody ever brought that up to me before. And I’m like, this is sort of my very curious quest that I really think that I’m not gonna solve the puzzle or get the keys to the Kingdom, but I really am fascinated by this sort of dynamic between two people trying to make it work and I sort of I am funny hope and I feel like the more information I can get from other people. You’re like, oh. This is your opinion on stuff. I’m like, my opinion is gathered from hundreds of thousands of people on the world that I’m listening and absorbing, especially the men. I thought that I knew everything there was to know about a man, because I was a man, right? All I know is what I knew. I had no idea, especially because I was so emotionally walled off. I had no idea what men were going through in, in relationships or their upbringing, parenting or whatever. And listening to the men because a lot of women say that too. They’re like you don’t you don’t always like to be a woman cause you’re woman like all you probably know is what you and a few of your friends experience. Like being open to other people’s perspectives. And on that made me better this or maybe better. Boyfriend. Maybe. Maybe better possibility to understand that I don’t have all the answers, and I never will and that’s good.

Doreen: No.

Jeff: I don’t think we ever will.

Brian: Unless you run out of questions unless you run out of questions which you should never run out of questions. You’re never gonna have all the answers.

Doreen: All right, so.

Jeff: I thought I thought you were an amazing, amazing guest as I knew you would be.

Brian: Pressure was on.

Doreen: I love your podcast. I have to tell you I’ve been listening to you as I’m walking.

Brian: Thank you. You listen that divorced one. When you’re walking,.

Doreen: Well, I didn’t listen to that one. But I saw it when I was looking this morning and so, how do they get into? How do they find you?

Brian: They go to great love debate, obviously on all the socials and all the social media platforms, or if you want to ask me something shoot me an e-mail. [email protected].

Jeff: That’s right.

Doreen: Yay. Thank you.

Brian: Thank you. This is fun.

Doreen: Always a pleasure.

Jeff:  I’m going to rewind this and listen to it very carefully taking a lot of notes.

Doreen: Just listen to the podcast. You’ll do well.

Brian: Don’t let the AI listen to it for you and give you the Cliff notes.

Jeff: Oh, that’s right. That’s right. Well, thank you once again listeners out there. I hope you enjoyed and we will see you next week.

Doreen: Bye everyone.

Jeff: Bye bye. You have the vision of what you want your life to look like after divorce, but maybe you just don’t know how to get there. So if you’re ready to take control of your life and want to find out more about our coaching, visit us at That’s L A D as in life after divorce dash

Doreen: Until next time, have an amazing rest of your day. And remember, yes, you can have an amazing life after divorce.

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