Ep. 145 – Anger is Expensive

Jeff 00:00
Hello, everybody out there. You know, anger is a very common emotion before, during, and after divorce. And it can be very, very costly. So that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. So if you’re ready, let’s get started.

Doreen 00:27
Are you ready to create a life that’s better than ever before? We are Doreen Yaffa and Jeff Wilson and we are here to give you the strategies you need to create the life after divorce that you deserve, and desire. As partners both in marriage and coaching, we use our expertise as well as our own personal experiences to help you make the next chapter of your life the best chapter.

Jeff 01:01
Hello, Doreen, how are you?

Doreen 01:02
Good, good.

Jeff 01:03
What’s going on?

Doreen 01:05
Well, we are in May.

Jeff 01:07
Yes, Happy May.

Doreen 01:08
Happy May, middle of May. So as people are listening to this podcast.I hope they had a fantastic lovely and beautiful Mother’s Day.

Jeff 01:18
Yes.

Doreen 01:19
To all the moms out there, high five.

Jeff 01:22
Moms, grandmoms, all those.

Doreen 01:23
All the moms. Even dog moms, pet moms, right?

Jeff 01:27
Yes.

Doreen 01:28
But it is the end of the school year.

Jeff 01:30
That’s true.

Doreen 01:30
You know? So remember those days, honey?

Jeff 01:33
Oh, boy, do I.

Doreen 01:35
Remember the end of the year parties, and the meetings with the teachers and teacher appreciation and all that stuff? Which by the way, shout out to our teachers, right. Really?

Jeff 01:45
Absolutely.

Doreen 01:46
What a what an amazing career for those that are in the educational field. High five to you, high five to you. It is, it is such an important job. And in my humble little opinion, highly under compensated. But that’s for another day. But yeah, it’s enter the year beginning of the summer. And it’s it’s getting hot. You know, it’s so funny because my mom who bless her, her soul, her soul, her heart. Bless her everything. She’s like, it’s getting so hot again. I’m like, Mom, I want you to understand something. You live in Florida. Like this happens every year. Right? Because with the good comes the bad. Yes. I reminded her you got out of New England because you didn’t like the snow and the cold and all that went along with that. Well, you have to take the good with the bad. So, you know, she doesn’t have the luxury like some of the snowbirds here that come here during the winter. When it’s cold back wherever they live, and then they go back home in the summer. That would be like really nice. Right?

Jeff 02:55
Would be. We’re gonna take a trip soon in the summer, and it’s gonna be a lot of fun getting out of the heat. Going to North Carolina, where it’s nice and cool at night.

Doreen 03:04
Yeah, it is. It is. So yeah. So anyhow, so winding in for summer fun. That’s good. So let’s talk about anger. In my 30 years of practicing family law, mostly divorces, I would say that anger fuels, the most contested litigation, most contested, and also the longest. And I see it time and again, I think that it is probably the most expensive emotion that one can, in other words, if you if you’re not in control of the anger, that is going to cost you a lot of money. Time. And your sanity?

Jeff 03:56
Yeah, I was just gonna say, cost you your health, it could cost you a lot of mental health as well.

Doreen 04:02
Absolutely. And so, you know, when it’s unchecked, when you don’t deal with it? Or you’re the ex is not dealing with it. That’s another issue. And we’ll talk about that. But it’s like literally throwing gasoline on a fire.

Jeff 04:17
Absolutely.

Doreen 04:18
I just and it just accumulates, it just continues to grow and fester. And when both parties aren’t able to deal with their anger during the divorce, it’s a few it’s just like a recipe for even bigger disaster. Which eventually, because only you know, in Florida at least only less than 5% of the cases actually go to trial. There’s lots of depots and hearings and mediations and settlements and all kinds of financial disclosure and hiring of experts and lots of money being spent along the way, you know, fueling anger. Because I’ll tell you, it’s really not that complicated. Most family law, and I think this is throughout the country. The issues are not overly complicated. There are a few cases in which and we handle some of those cases. But you know, where the issues are complex, like the valuing of a business, right? That can be more complicated, doesn’t mean need to be fueled by anger. It’s just a complicated, potentially more complicated legal issue.

Doreen 05:29
So it’s, it’s a shame, you know, because if most cases settle, what is all that stuff in between what is all the wasted time money on fees, and everything else that happened?

Jeff 05:40
We think that it’s probably the time that it takes for somebody to be worn out?

Doreen 05:45
Well, that’s exactly the issue is that they get to a point when it’s right before trial, and now it’s like, oh, wait a second. You mean, I can’t continue in the anger, the judge is going to cut off this anger, or they run out of money. It’s called I like to call it attorneys fee fatigue. They start saying, how much did I have I’ve been spending? Well, let me get serious about trying to resolve this. And that’s sad. So there’s no question that left unmanaged divorces can do anger can bring out the worst in people 100%.

Jeff 06:19
And not just the financial like, they could be spent emotionally, whereby the by the time it does go to trial, like you’re saying, not only are they done financially, but they’re just so mentally exhausted, they just want to get get it through. And now they’re looking back and saying all this anger was for nothing, let’s just get it done.

Doreen 06:39
And you know, you have to, as well, at least as a lawyer, as a litigator, you have to peel back, kind of the outer layer, because a client will come to me and have a very good, I’m going to call it story for the moment. And it may be somewhat factual, right. But they’ll have a very strong story about, for example, why they want to limit time sharing, which visitation, right. And they’ll have some good reasons. Maybe, for example, it might be that my husband drinks too much, or my wife doesn’t take care of the children because we have someone at home and this person really does all the caretaking. And she’s out gallivanting around town. I mean, you could think of a million things that people say. A lot of times that’s in the guise, the disguise of anger, acting as if you’re doing something for the best interest as an example for the children. But in really behind that it’s all fueled by anger. So good lawyers really need to peel that back. Peel that layer back and look at the facts. Okay, you say your husband drinks a lot? Are the children with them? How often does he drink? What does he drink? Who else has seen this? What evidence do you have of this? Has he dealt with it? Those types of things? Right? So yeah, because it’s easy just to go with what not go with what a client says. But it’s easy to, we’re advocates, we’re advocates, and so we want where we believe our clients, but there’s times that you have to say why is this happening? Why do you have this position, and really get to the bottom of it. Now, I think that what’s unique to me and my firms are that we’re very in tune with that, because of what I do for a living, otherwise, which is as a life coach, so we can zero in on the emotions that are fueling the litigation. We can also deal with other emotions that getting clients help, right? Because there is a lot of other emotion like sadness, and which leads to can lead to, obviously depression, which can lead to even more serious depression. You have the ability to trigger in on that. But today’s episode is about anger.

Jeff 09:01
And I’m sure that the anger that they claim is being used to protect, well, I know but I’m saying they’re using the anger to protect the kids in your example. They’re probably the anger is probably hurting the kids.

Doreen 09:17
Absolutely. I mean, we know as coaches, that anger is giving up your power to somebody else, right? In other words, I let you husband get me so upset. I’m so pissed off at you that I’m going to show you a thing or two, and it’s going to be in the form of this guise of protecting something. Right, right. So you have to be really like, how do you deal with that? Well, I think that if we have listeners that are feeling anger, the first thing we want to tell you is anger is a normal emotion, and anticipated emotion and expected emotion when you’re going through divorce or even considering divorce, it is part of it. And if you’re not angry at some time, I would venture to say, that’s another issue. What are you doing with it? Are you able to lean into it, first recognize it, and then process it, understand where your thought is coming from. Because remember, thoughts, create feelings, like I’m going to show him creates a feeling of anger, right? That then is, is an act turns into an action, in this case, litigating an issue about the children that ends in a result, which of course, if you don’t have the support of the facts, as to the issue, you’re going to lose, right? So now you spent all this time, all this money, trying to get back at your ex because of anger that fueled this action to end up with a result of not winning a case and your children are affected as well.

Jeff 11:01
Like you said before, it’s going to also disempower you. And it weighs heavily on your body, your mind, your feelings, everything. And after all, you’re just exhausted by the end of it. So what do you want, slow down, be aware of what you’re thinking about and decide, hey, this is the result that I really want.

Doreen 11:25
And what thoughts do I have to get there, one of the results you may want, if you’re trying to deal with your anger, is the result might be you want to get through the divorce quickly, with less money on fees, get on with your life. And then you could just reverse engineer it. How do I get there? Well, you’re not gonna get there by fueling litigation. Right?

Jeff 11:48
Exactly.

Doreen 11:48
You’re gonna get there by compromise, by kindness, by having your lawyers focus in on resolving the case, not litigating the case, you got to control your lawyers, and then getting to a settlement conference mediation or agreement.

Jeff 12:04
I think we call that thoughts with purpose.

Jeff 12:07
Yeah, I would think that if they came to you with this kind of information that maybe isn’t factual and might throw the case in the wrong direction. And that’s what you’re talking about, as far as maybe taking longer, will be more costly.

Doreen 12:07
Correct. The thought of trying to see what you can do to resolve the case. And I think you need to, you know, be aware of what’s happening in your litigation. If you go and you talk to your lawyer about concerns that you have issues that you have, that are not foundational, in fact, your lawyer doesn’t yet know that. So when you when you’re speaking from a place of anger, and you’re saying I have a real concern, because XYZ, but maybe it’s not foundational, right? It’s more to get them back. Your lawyer doesn’t know that yet. Right? They don’t know that until they develop the facts, which requires looking at documents talking to witnesses, taking depositions, a very expensive process. So what I’m suggesting is just be focused on what truly the issues are, what facts you have to support those issues, the facts. And, for example, if it is that there should be some restriction on one party’s access to the children, then focus in on the facts, not from a place of anger, from a place of this is sad from place of he needs help, or she needs help from a place of I need to protect the children. But here’s the facts that I have to show you.

Doreen 13:43
If someone comes to me, and they have set forth a set of facts that aren’t real, right, they’re talking from a place of anger. So, you know, we have a saying among divorce attorneys. It’s what she said what he said, and somewhere in the middle of where it lies, because there is so much speak from emotion. Because they’re trying to assert their pressure. They’re there in the litigation. And they understand enough to know why she doesn’t deserve that support. Why I’m not going to agree that he gets the house, why I’m going to hold on to that account, that I must have that investment. When there’s a whole slew of other accounts. People I told you that one case was sad very early in my career. They literally had settled everything in their case, they had many millions of dollars, and they were older. They were in their 70s It was sad. It was a long term marriage, but they were collectors of antique furniture. And there was this one chair. I don’t remember but it was like a very expensive, you know,

Jeff 14:54
Throne type of chairs.

Doreen 14:56
Yes, exactly. And it was, you know, it was worth a lot of money. And they both had the, they wanted it. And they settled every issue except for the chair. It was so sad. And we went to court. And the judge inquired, they did this at what they call a case management, like what’s going on? How many issues? Can you? Yeah, why is the case not settled? Can I push you? This is a judge speaking, can you go back to mediation, and they’re saying, We’ve been at mediation. This is the, I was the lawyer, we’ve been at mediation, we’ve resolved all the issues. But we were unable to reach a global total settlement because of one issue. And the judge asked, which is normally not the case. Can you discuss that with me? Like, is there any way that I can promote this? And the parties agreed, and they talked about the chair and the judge almost fell off his? What do you call it?

Jeff 15:48
Benches? Benches.

Doreen 15:50
And the bottom line is when the judge gave him, the parties are to send his two cents in reality check. I’m going to give one person the chair, or better yet, how about I just sell the chair? When he said, you know, you do realize that I can, you know, I can sell the chair, or I can give it to one party and just give the value of it to someone else.

Jeff 16:12
Right.

Doreen 16:12
So what are we, you know, resolve it, and they did resolve it. I can’t remember what the result was.

Jeff 16:19
So now that we realize that anger, of course, is a big part of divorce, and it’s it’s very normal. How do we work through anger?

Doreen 16:30
Well, not only that, I don’t know if we’re ready to address this bigger question. I was just thinking, that’s a big question. How do we deal and work through the anger? So we don’t do these things during divorce that are going to backfire? Is how do you deal with if you have come to terms with your anger? And you are working from a place of kindness trying to resolve it and peace towards settlement? But the other side isn’t? That’s a big question. And I think that’s something that, you know, we need to address, but certainly your actions, and it’s very hard for someone to continue. Have you ever noticed that? If someone’s angry?

Jeff 17:13
Yeah.

Doreen 17:14
And let’s say they say something in a mean, spirit, spirited way. And most people that are not getting along, are going to do what?

Jeff 17:24
Fireback.

Doreen 17:25
Correct. And then what happens?

Jeff 17:27
You’re gonna fire right back.

Doreen 17:28
Exactly. And then what happens, just continues.

Jeff 17:32
It escalates.

Doreen 17:33
It escalates until probably either one person just walks away, or whatever it is, right? Hopefully, in your favor.

Jeff 17:40
There are things are said that they don’t really mean that are very, very hurtful.

Doreen 17:58
So the result when when both parties are angry, it just continues until it explodes. Right? And when they use in same store and leave.

Jeff 18:04
And probably nothing was accomplished.

Doreen 18:06
Of course, it wasn’t right by me probably, well, I’m gonna bet 9.99999, it doesn’t get resolved. Anger doesn’t resolve it to angry parties are not going to resolve their divorce. However, if you have a, you’re the one that wants to and you’re the person is resolve your anger, you’re not that type of person, you’re focusing on the result. It’s what I was going to say is when one person yells at you, and you just say something to the effect of I’m, you know, sorry. Yeah, I’m sorry that you’re upset. I’d really like to talk from a different place from a different, you know, level of emotion. Can you do that? Can we do that? Because I think this is important. And I want to hear what you have to say. What do you think the results is going to be?

Jeff 18:59
It’s going to be a positive result. But that’s a very tough thing to do.

Doreen 19:03
But why? No, no, seriously, I’m, you know, this is we’re just doing this live. I know these are not scripted. Okay. So I’m asking the tough question. The why. Why is it so hard for someone to respond kindly and peacefully and lovingly, even when another person is angry at you? So that’s the question.

Jeff 19:30
Well, what we have learned and studied is that people tend to go back to your primitive brain when it comes to anger.

Doreen 19:42
Well, it goes back to from what we’ve learned, right? Well, we’ve learned makes sense and we’re certainly not you no expert at this. But from what I’ve read, is that it goes back to basically even cave man time in when you were being attacked. You have the instinct, the automatic reaction, the primitive takes over the body to just takes over to what fight or flight practice, right? But the beauty of being human is that we have the beauty to stop, to stop, to absolutely 100% stop ourselves from that flight, or fight. Right? Because most of us, you know, when when you get when you were a kid, or whenever somebody would hide, and then we sometimes we play around, I know it’s funny, I’ll just come or I’ll go boo. And you like jump 10 feet. Your body is literally reacting to the stimulant of I have to It’s like fear, like something’s attacking me, right? Even though you’re perfectly safe in your home. Okay, the same is true when you react to somebody through that is angry at you, if you just simply say something kind. And it may be very challenging to do that, you may have to even script them down, rehearse them, put them on a piece of paper, put them in the inside of your palm, I don’t know. But if you just simply react, something like, you know, I know that I can see you’re upset, I can see you’re angry. And I would rather not discuss this when you’re angry. I care about us. I care about getting through this, I care about our children. I just want to resolve this, I don’t want to fight with you. I don’t want to get upset with you.

Jeff 21:45
Just just hear you say that, by the way has calmed me down. You know, and when I hear you say that and talk to me in that way, it’s like It’s very soothing. So I can imagine being angry and coming at you and you kind of putting out the fire versus fuel in the fire.

Doreen 22:01
Maybe it would save some marriages, or relationships, you know, relationships, any relationships and relationships with siblings and friends. I mean, how many times do we hear among certain groups of people that, you know, we have various friend groups, different types of friend groups, and there’s this one ongoing issue and one of our family friend groups. And it stems from anger and resentment and jealousy. It’s just like, and then one word and one sentences said, and it kind of just, you know, it’s like the gasoline on the fire. It’s like, and then people get more angry, and you can’t get it back together. It’s hard to keep that relationship together. Because it’s friend, you don’t have to see them every day. Right? And you know, it’s sad.

Jeff 22:49
Well, and then also, you know, you know, we do have clients that want to stay married, that are married, and what we teach, yeah, that’s build your life after divorce, is saving their marriage.

Doreen 23:03
Right. I mean, it’s interesting that right now we have several clients who are married, and who are trying to see if you know, because remember, if you go back to the episode on manuals, we talk about it a lot. A lot of these, a lot of our clients have this thought that if he or she does or acts a certain way, then everything’s going to be perfect, my life, marriage, myself, everything’s going to be perfect and not just isn’t reality, because no one else can make you happy. They might make you happy for the moment. Right? Oh, look, she did this. Or he, you know, he planned to hold dinner for me in a date night or she, you know, went out of her way to cook dinner for me tonight. Like, you know, I’m saying and I’ve been asking him or her to do that.

Jeff 23:58
And when when you’re, it’s okay to want them to do something but not when you base your happiness on it.

Doreen 24:00
What I was gonna say is don’t expect that to be long term. Okay. What I’m saying is, they might do, that’s why I’m I’m a believer, and I may get flagged for this and that’s okay. But I think there’s a place for therapy. Okay. Therapists are amazing. I have therapists have done wonders for certain people in our family, like wonders, wonders. I was just talking to one of my family members about that yesterday. Like she’s so happy that she, you know, got the opportunity to be in therapy and so, and how much it has helped her. But what I’m saying is that, you know, when you go to marriage counseling, and I don’t know, I went to marriage counseling with Sam. Did you go with Yvan?

Jeff 24:51
No.

Doreen 24:52
Okay.

Doreen 24:55
That was such a very quick and confident no. Same, but I went to counseling with Jeff. And it was Sam sorry. Maybe we should go too. I went to counseling I’m sorry, with, with Sam. And I love this counselor like he is on the top of my list, right? And like the best, but it’s like, well, what are all the things that you want him to do that would you know, make you happy? And these are all the things that she would like you to do and that he would like you to do? And then it’s like, Do this, do this? So can we work on these? And I’m going. But if you are who you are, like, yes, you can make subtle changes. You can also expect subtle changes in another person. Right? But they’re subtle. If they’re from another person, you can control the own change in your life. Right? 100% you can control it. Okay, so if I want to be on a venture to gain muscle, and you know, I just lost a bunch of weight and had been working out and I’m proud of myself, but it was I made a decision to do it. But when you want somebody else to do something, and you put all of your happiness on if they do it or if they don’t, or at least you dwell on that. It’s never going to work out because you can’t control what that person does. They’re not going to do it forever. And what happens when they slip back into their normal expected, you know, way of being? Are you willing to accept that at that point? Right. Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen somebody changed so drastically for somebody else. I can’t even name and we’ve been around collectively a long time if we put the number of years together, right? Have you ever seen anybody change? Absolutely change a big thing? I’m not talking about taking out the garbage. I’m talking about stop drinking, make money, go to work. What other people complain abou, don’t spending spending money, drinking, like big issues that cause big issues that cause big issues that cause divorce? Okay, taking out the trash doesn’t cause divorce. But financial issues do, adultery does, communication issues do, trust issues, too. So if you have something and you need a boundary around something like that, the question is, can you control the consequence of the boundary?

Doreen 27:39
Many times, you have to learn to either accept or not learn, you don’t have to do anything. You have to help your self to have new thoughts. So that you can hopefully save your marriage by not anticipating a change in that person. Okay. And then there’s some times where you have to just then say, ongoing to learn to accept this person for what he or she is, he is never going to be that guy. She is never going to be exactly that girl that you have this thought of. It’s not going to happen. And can you live with him or her? Just the way she is?

Jeff 28:19
Down to what we’ve we always teach, the only thing you have control over the only thing you can change is your thoughts.

Doreen 28:27
So then I think that when you’re thinking, well, going back to what we were talking about with anger, I think people present a lot of couples, spouses present anger, when they get frustrated that people don’t do things and act certain ways, right? When the marriage is starting to crumble, or during the divorce because they didn’t take the kids, they didn’t bring the kids home at the right time, or they didn’t feed them. It’s all this stuff. It’s all this stuff. And it really is totally unnecessary to have that anger. And I don’t think I think the smarter people are the ones that can learn to manage the response to the anger being, you know, at you. That is so smart. And so hard. It is so hard, but you know what? Hard things are worth it. Yeah, it really is. But in the moment, it feels good to yell back. Well, it does.

Jeff 29:24
And also..

Doreen 29:26
Like physically, it feels like you’re protecting yourself.

Jeff 29:28
Human beings hurt. I mean, anger. Yeah, going back to your primitive brain. Anger feels a lot better than sadness, because anger makes you powerful, where sadness takes your power away. So if you’re if you have the choice to be sad about something or angry, you’re going to choose anger.

Doreen 29:48
How about the choice to just not to be at a place of peace about it, to not engage, to not give them the benefit and taking of taking your power of being in a good kind place? When you let somebody get a rise out of you, it is giving that all away. It’s giving that all away, you might as well just take all that love kindness that you’ve worked so hard to be at. And when you get triggered, you’re just letting them take control of it. And that’s not powerful. But it feels good in the moment. And I think that’s where it takes such a higher degree of really concentration, meditation, self focus, thinking, self awareness, self care, when you are tired, and you are not eating well, and you’re not sleeping, you’re going to be most more prone to react with anger. Right? Okay, short fuse. Everybody’s heard that hangry that’s a very common thing. And it’s, you know, people describe that feeling of being hungry. If I don’t need something right now, I’m gonna get like really upset, and they do. So you have to really look at yourself first and like, take care of yourself. And how do you start to breathe. This is where I love yoga. You know, I love it just you are forced to concentrate on the breath. And when you fall in, you really do it the right way. And you focus in on your breath, the, in the out the end in the out your mind, lets go of all the other stuff because you’re focusing on the breath. That’s why in meditation, you focus on the breath, because if not, your mind just wanders. So I think meditation is great.

Jeff 31:29
And that’s why target work and kicking and punching the bag and martial arts is so popular, because it definitely on the kick, yeah, well, not just focused on the kick, and the technique, but the hit, the power, the strength that you’re getting out of your body relaxes you, destresses you, so that you can become calm and be more, you’re exhausted.

Doreen 31:55
It’s true. I don’t know who knows this. But Jeff is a fourth degree black belt. So you know, it’s beautiful that he’s, he’s now a life coach after his many years, and I’m talking a long career and owning to Jojo’s. And currently training for his fifth degree, I might add blackbelt that he you know, is in coaching, because it’s all the same thing, like these disciplines and bots that we teach are all the same thing. They’re just they come to us, whether it’s you know, whatever form it is martial arts, life coaching, meditation, yoga, you know, whatever it is spiritually that you’re into, it’s all the same teaching, it’s just under a different delivery system, is the way I think of it.

Jeff 32:46
All about the six inches between.

Doreen 32:48
We all just get along, especially during a divorce try, please dealing first with your anger, if you’re the angry person, it is not serving you and is going to come back and bite you in that tissue of yours, I promise you. Paying money is expensive to lawyers, you know, your children going through a divorce is expensive. If God forbid something happened to you, and you didn’t move on with your life soon enough to enjoy life, that you cannot take that there are so many things. And if you’re the person dealing with the person that’s angry at you, that’s going to take a lot of self awareness and really control and coming from that really spiritual place of the better result, the bigger result. And it will be challenging, but you can do it. And that’s why we coach. That’s why coaching is such a beautiful thing. Because coaching gives you the ability to have somebody to talk about this with to help you to see your thoughts and hear your thoughts. And to pre think about potential circumstances that may arise in a divorce process even or after divorce things we deal with and things we know that will help you be able to address them from a place that’s going to make a big result. And one that you want.

Jeff 34:05
And that’s that was the key that I was going to talk about was the result that you want after divorce, which is what we talked about and you know life after divorce, what kind of future do you want to create for yourself? Does the anger serve that goal? Does anger serve what you really really want? So if you focus on what you want, slow down, take that breath, whether it’s yoga, martial arts or just meditation, come to the realization that the way you think is important is going to have that result in your life.

Doreen 34:39
Monetarily. It’s a very strange concept to many people and I get it. I totally get that. But when you really have the ability to learn what it’s all about in coaching, and when you know we we became certified as coaches and I have been coaching and have coaches myself, I don’t I practice what I preach. Okay, so I’ve had coaches and I have coaches now I have a business coach, because running a successful business is all about your mind as well. Okay? So all of it all is the same, but get the tools you need, it’s really gonna pay off tremendously. All right, meaning pay off as like you’re gonna get your case over sooner than later.

Jeff 35:27
All right, everybody, we’ll talk to you next week.

Doreen 35:30
Have an amazing, amazing week and be kind to yourself to others and get your case resolved.

Jeff 35:46
You have the vision of what you want your life to look like after divorce, but maybe you just don’t know how to get there. So if you’re ready to take control of your life and want to find out more about our coaching, visit us at lad-coaching.com. That’s LAD as in lad-coaching.com.

Doreen 36:08
Until next time, have an amazing rest of your day. And remember, yes, you can..

Doreen & Jeff 36:14
Have an amazing life after divorce.