Jeff 00:00
Hello everybody out there. Welcome to Episode 153. Today we’re going to be talking about listening and hearing or the difference between hearing and listening. So if you’re ready, let’s get started.
Doreen 00:21
Are you ready to create a life that’s better than ever before? We are Doreen Yffa and Jeff Wilson and we are here to give you the strategies you need to create the life after divorce that you deserve, and desire. As partners both in marriage and coaching, we use our expertise as well as our own personal experiences to help you make the next chapter of your life the best chapter.
Doreen 00:53
Hey, Jeff.
Jeff 00:53
Hey, Doreen. How are you?
Doreen 00:55
I’m doing spectacular.
Jeff 00:57
Video number two.
Doreen 00:59
Video number two.
Jeff 01:00
Okay, so what’s new with you?
Doreen 01:03
For the people that are listening to us, we are video recording these as well.
Jeff 01:08
Yes.
Doreen 01:09
So that’s what we were talking about. I’m doing good. No complaints, all good.
Jeff 01:13
Good, good. Good, beautiful summer day today, it’s sunny outside. If you’re not looking at the video, if you are looking at the video, you can tell right behind us because we’re videoing it from our home.
Doreen 01:25
Yes, we are.
Jeff 01:25
In the backyard, beautiful sunshine and beautiful water.
Doreen 01:29
Absolutely. So I know that you want to talk about this subject today. God gave us –
Jeff 01:36
Two ears.
Doreen 01:37
And one mouth.
Jeff 01:38
Why is that?
Doreen 01:40
To?
Jeff 01:40
Listen twice as much as you speak.
Doreen 01:43
You know what during divorce, everybody wants to talk so much. The lawyers want to talk so much that clients want to say their piece. Sometimes we need to slow down and do a little more listening. Right?
Jeff 01:55
Yeah. And I think that when I heard this topic, so to speak, it was a bunch of politicians trying to get a word in edgewise. And it helped me that nobody is listening. No one was well, at that time. To my opinion, nobody was listening to the other person speak.
Doreen 02:19
Well, because they have their objective.
Jeff 02:21
Their agenda was they wanted to be heard. I wanted to get their words in, their reasonings then. And nobody, in my opinion, was following up with what the other person said, because they seem to not hear a word they said.
Doreen 02:38
Oh, I think in politics, there’s an agenda. And, you know, the each side is trying to get out what they want to get out.
Jeff 02:47
I don’t think it’s just politics.
Doreen 02:49
No, I but I do notice that a lot of times in politics, someone will ask what I would think is a pretty direct question, meaning a direct response answer, and they just skirt around it. So let’s get off the politics.
Jeff 03:03
Okay, good. Good.
Doreen 03:04
We usually don’t like go in there. But I.
Jeff 03:07
I just, I think that while we’re talking about listening, and while we’re talking about hearing, I think that everybody can relate to different areas of their life, whether it’s their divorce, could be their current marriage, could be friendships, it could be new relationships. And I think understanding the difference between the two may just help a little bit, in the communication.
Doreen 03:31
You know, I’m studying a lot right now about negotiations, because I keep talking about this. And I’m just going to keep talking about it. Because it’s a fact is that most divorces settle. But they take a long time to settle. And people spent a lot of time effort dollars, lawyers, the legal system. And so I think that part of what I’ve learned so far is negotiation is really listening to the other side. Many times when you’re negotiating a settlement and divorce, it’s not so much about the item at issue, right? Like, I want it, he wants it kind of she wants it, he wants it kind of thing, right? It’s about why do they want it if you can get to the heart of the reason which requires the listening. Many times you can resolve the issue in a negotiation by just addressing the true issue. The true concern, it’s not the issue isn’t the extra, you know, money. Or like I said, you get this and I get this, it’s much deeper. Many times people just want to be heard, right. They want to be heard. They want to be acknowledged, they want to be recognized, don’t we all?
Jeff 04:55
Everybody wants to be heard. I did hear you.
Doreen 04:58
I’m not sure that you heard me. Did you hear me?
Jeff 05:00
I did hear you. And but I wasn’t listening. But that’s the difference.
Doreen 05:06
What’s the difference?
Jeff 05:07
Oh, what I was getting? Well, because I heard what you said, and I heard it, but I wasn’t paying attention. See paying attention is the part of listening. And that’s the key. So if I was listening intently to your words, I would have quickly and easily answered the question. So I heard you, but I did not pay attention. I’m sorry for that.
Doreen 05:26
That’s okay. You are forgiven.
Jeff 05:28
What I was going to ask you, though, is how would that help you as an attorney, where your client would come in and listen a lot more than…
Doreen 05:38
How would it help? Well, I think the first thing is, is that if the client truly was listening to the advice, that’s what you’re paying us, for, you’re paying us for our expertise in the practice of law. For me, it’s family law, that you’re hiring me for, at a significant amount, per hour. So I think the first thing would be get your money’s worth, right? Get your money’s worth. We’re gonna guide you and advise you based on the law, the facts of your case, and give you the best advice. That is what we are supposed to do. That is our professional responsibility to our clients. But many times we spend the majority of our conversation with our clients, doing a lot of listening to them, which there’s nothing, you know, that is expected is we are counselors, as well. And so part of what we do is listening, listening to his story, listening to the facts, but we’re also advising so the first thing I would say is slow down, let your lawyer do some talking. Because if you hear them, and I would repeat it back to them, you know, so what you’re telling me what you’re advising me is XYZ, right? When you’re speaking with your lawyer, it truly should be about the business of law, the business of your case. Many times we are listening to emotions talking. And I get that and it’s part of what I love doing is sympathizing and putting myself in my clients position, but also helping them to get out of their own way. That is my job. My job is to help them when they can’t think clearly. So that is one of the reasons why, the second reason is because it costs a lot of money to hire lawyers.
Jeff 07:39
It probably keeps the bill down.
Doreen 07:41
Right, we charge by the hour, broken down into increments. And so why would you not want to get your money’s worth? Right? There’s a place and a time to speak to a therapist and to life coaches. And then when you’re talking to your lawyer really focused in on the matter of at a blah, right?
Jeff 08:00
Well, speaking of breaking it down. A lot of times I want to start with a definition. Because the definition of hearing, it’s physiological. In other words..
Doreen 08:10
It’s the ability to be able to hear sound.
Jeff 08:13
It’s just the sound waves coming into your ear. And you perceive them to hear them the way they your ear perceives the sound waves. Hearing is involuntary. Unless you have a hearing issue, of course. But I mean, in a normal ear, it’s involuntary. Now listening on the other side is the act of paying attention. And really trying to process consciously what the other person is saying. So one is involuntary and one is voluntary. And knowing the difference between the two can make a huge difference in effective communication. And what did they say the number one reason for divorces, maybe it’s money and finances, but the other one is probably the lack of communication. Okay, one thing that’s going to help you in business, really effective communication, may be new relationships, speaking to your children, communication is key. So I think that that’s one thing that’s really important, and we’re going to break down some ways that you can have more effective listening.
Doreen 09:24
Okay, what happens when you have someone on the other side that doesn’t want to partake in this listening exercise?
Jeff 09:31
You have them listened to our podcast.
Doreen 09:34
Okay, suppose I don’t want to listen to the podcast.
Jeff 09:37
I think one of the benefits, the best thing to do is let’s try to explain to them the benefits of being a good listener.
Doreen 09:45
But I think that you know, as I studied more about negotiating, and the art of negotiation, which of course I’ve learned through my 30 years of practicing, but really setting it at a higher level. I think that if you truly again, even If you don’t have a willing participant on the other side, if you listen to truly what they’re saying, and ask them the follow up questions, the questions that will help them to realize that you are interested in hearing them. I was always trying, I said that wrong interested in listening to them. Because hearing you couldn’t hear the words, are you listening to what they’re actually saying?
Jeff 10:30
The other way to effectively communicate that is to let that person know you are listening, is to ask a question off of what they just said.
Doreen 10:42
That’s what I’m saying.
Jeff 10:43
Yeah. So that’s the most effective way of gaining somebody’s trust, gaining somebody’s what’s the word? Gaining their camaraderie, being on the same page with them.
Doreen 10:57
So again, in negotiation, you can get down to the real heart at at issue with the person many times it’s, they just want to be heard, or listened to.
Jeff 11:09
So what is listening?
Doreen 11:13
Well, what’s the definition of listening?
Jeff 11:15
Well, this gets a little bit more intense. Listening is the inactive conscious and deliberate process where the brain interprets, make sense of the sounds it hears, it makes sense of because remember, when we hear something, we will try to make sense of it automatically. It will, we will try to edify it. And if I mean, back it up, so to speak. Unlike hearing, which is a physiological what we said ability listening requires mental engagement. So when you’re listening to somebody, you’re engaging with them mentally, in an effort to comprehend and respond to the stimuli, right. So the better you listen, the better you can respond to what you just heard. And I’m gonna give you a little bit more of an in depth process of how listening works. And some kind of tips.
Doreen 12:13
Yeah, I was wondering if we could even do an example. An example of, you know, how listening is different than hearing? Right?
Jeff 12:30
Well, I know one way is, when you’re trying to break down the words, word by word, and understanding when they come from. You remember, this seven was, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, that one habit of first seek first to understand and be understood. I was just gonna say that that is part of the biggest part of listening, is I’m trying to understand where you’re coming from. So now I can interpret that and rebuttal say something probably more intelligent, because I heard and listened, and I digested, and I comprehended what you said.
Doreen 13:12
Yeah, I think real good mediators have an amazing ability to listen. Because they’re going back and forth between the parties, right? They’re generally in what they call caucus meeting, they’re in rooms, just the mediator, one side, so let’s say husband side, and his lawyer, maybe his forensic accountant, doing the listening, interpreting what it means getting to the root of that issue, and then presenting it to the next side, listening to that next side, the wife’s room, hearing what she has to say, interpreting it, processing it, understanding it, and then learning how to present that back to the husband’s time and I’m sorry, side in a way that hopefully is going to bring them closer to finalizing a settlement.
Jeff 14:06
Good, good. Great example.
Doreen 14:07
Seriously, one, what an amazing skill to have as a mediator, to be able to really listen. So I think the mediators, for example, that I use have amazing listening skills. And that’s so key.
Jeff 14:23
Well, how important is it for a lawyer to listen to the other side’s opening argument? Or their questions that they’re asking their, your client or their client, and then you’re listening to that so intently that you’re almost changing what your plan was adapting to?
Doreen 14:47
Well, yes. So if you’re in a deposition or if you’re in court, and you’re listening to the words, you know, let’s say the other side is got the husband on the stand. You’re listening because you’re trying to really understand what you’re hearing, add a level of listening so that you can then cross examine, right? And get those key points in. What is really important in a trial case, or in a hearing, is to listen to what the judge says. So many times a judge gives you cues on what they’re looking for, you know, from the moment they walk into the courtroom and say, Good morning, or good afternoon, you should be summing them up, meaning the lawyers, the clients are relying on us. Are they having a good day? Are they having a bad day? What is it? Do they want something quick? And to the point, are they looking for more in depth? Understanding on an issue, you are reading the whole room as a lawyer. And that takes great listening.
Jeff 15:52
Let’s focus on our listeners out there, because we probably don’t have too many. Hopefully, we do have a lot of lawyers out there listening to us, and, and mediators and all that. But right now just want to talk about listening, and relationships, listening possibly in your career, you know, at your work,
Doreen 16:11
Listening to your soon to be your coach.
Jeff 16:14
Oh, how important is it to listen to your children speak and analyze what they’re really saying or what they’re coming from? Because, you know, children, you know, how many times have you heard, oh, your mom, you don’t understand what I’m going through or “Dad, you’re old. You’re an old man, you don’t understand what I’m going through.” You know, it’s very, very important that you, to listen to your children and listen intently and try to understand where they’re coming from.
Doreen 16:43
But also to always take it as an opportunity to teach them what good listening skills look like. It’s not something that generally you learn in school. Okay. So let’s, let’s learn.
Jeff 16:56
Okay, so first thing I want to talk about is attention. Because listening begins with the decision to focus your attention on the message and tuning out. This is the big part, tuning out the other noises and distractions around you. Because, you know, the world that we live in today with, there’s so many distractions, so many things going on around us, TV’s on this guy’s on the computer, she’s on the phone, on their phone. And so there’s so many distractions, you know that to be able to focus, tune them out and really hone in on what somebody is saying, is attention your attention span. Next is your interpretation. So your interpretation will interpret the sounds given to them based on its context, and try to use their context, not your context, how many misunderstandings come from taking things out of the wrong context? Okay, so I’ll let you talk about understanding.
Doreen 18:03
You mean, understanding the distinction between passive and active listening It’s the first step. But I think we already talked about that, right?
Jeff 18:13
We’re reminding everybody.
Doreen 18:14
Okay, passive is just I’m hearing words. I’m listening to what you’re saying. But I’m not really interpreting it. Active, of course being I’m really trying to actively make sense of it. With with with compassion, right with understanding, there was a politician on the news the other day, I won’t remember his name, I won’t remember anything. But I loved what he said because they were on polar opposite sides of whatever issue they were discussing or debating. And he said, I seek first to understand, and even though I may not agree with the other side’s position, I always seek first to understand where they’re coming from. I may not agree with it. But I’m trying to get into their mind into their belief system to first put myself there. I thought that was just beautiful.
Jeff 19:12
Yeah, he was probably a Stephen Covey, reader, Steven, he’s the one with the seven habits to understand and be understood, because that’s the key to listing is seek first to understand. And then the last thing is responding. So once you have done all this prior in your understanding what you’re hearing, effective listening can lead to a more effective response.
Doreen 19:40
I think this is so important with co parenting. Right?
Jeff 19:44
Absolutely.
Doreen 19:45
Because it’s so easy to to not, first of all, how do you I have a good question for you, I think. Okay. Many people nowadays communicate through messaging, right? How does that work with this?
Jeff 20:03
It’s very, very difficult to communicate without the emotions behind it.
Doreen 20:10
You can communicate but it’s hard to, you’re not listening or where can you take a texts communication, and try to I assume you could look at the words and really try to look at the words in a list in a true listening type of manner.
Jeff 20:30
Very difficult because you lack the emotional collection. The emotional pauses, correct. The excitement in the voice or the slowing down. The voice, the emphasis.
Doreen 20:44
You can say two things. Like, right?
Jeff 20:48
Being totally things.
Doreen 20:49
Being totally the two same exact sentences. That was bad. Right? Meaning, okay. How did you take that one?
Jeff 21:01
I took it as a young kid. So that was good. Man, you bad.
Doreen 21:05
I mean, that was my second one. I was gonna go that’s bad.
Jeff 21:12
But it could be that you just read it. Hey, that was bad.
Doreen 21:15
I know. But I think today, so many people communicate through, you know, text messaging, and a lot of parents say like talking parents and various apps. You got to you got to really read between the lines, right?
Jeff 21:29
I think that’s one thing that Zoom has really come to the forefront with is being able to communicate facial expressions, being able to hear somebody without a being a phone call, or a text or a letter or an email, you know, you’re allowed to be able to hear, you can hear the inflection in their voice.
Doreen 21:53
Still lack something. There’s something to be said for being in the same room. Because first of all, you talk about attention. How many times I mean, I do zoom, I do, how many zoom meetings a week, probably at least a half a dozen zoom meetings a week, whether it be with clients, the court, my team. I’m on Zoom consistently. And one of the biggest issues I have when I’m working with team is who’s looking at their phone who’s looking at the screen, your attention level seems to be when you’re in a room with somebody, it’s a little more challenging to pick up your phone. Right? Because the person sees you doing it. When you’re on Zoom, you can kind of pick up your phone and you know, anyhow..
Jeff 22:39
Turn off your video. I think, no matter what there, you can always break down what we’re saying. But you can’t break down the fact that effective communication is a benefit.
Doreen 23:00
Oh, no, there’s no question.
Jeff 23:02
The biggest part of that is listening.
Doreen 23:03
Look, you have to that with anything in life, as we always teach, look at what you want your results to be. And that’s where, you know, everything that we teach, from the thoughts to the feelings, action results, to active listening to responding with kindness, all of these things would help to, to resolve divorce cases a lot sooner. Okay, and would make for much better co parenting relationships.
Jeff 23:36
It makes for a much better life after divorce in general.
Doreen 23:39
I think just life in general, closer relationships with people, you know, just, it’s, it saddens me that, you know, you look around and you can be in most public places, and people are just not actively listening.
Jeff 23:57
No. Well, there’s actually three types of listening. I know, you hit on a couple of them. But there’s critical listening, critical listening is when you need to analyze something to make a decision.
Doreen 24:09
I would say is a lot of the lawyering.
Jeff 24:12
Form opinions. Then there’s an empathetic listening, where you’re listening to somebody’s feelings and needs and wants, and being a supportive listener. And then you keep using the term active listening, that’s the probably the most important one is active listening, where you’re fully concentrating, and understanding and preparing yourself to respond based on what they just said, correct. And remembering what they said. Have you ever had somebody tell you their name and a couple of minutes later, you don’t remember their name?
Doreen 24:48
I’m not good with names. So I would say that I probably have fallen into that trap a few times.
Jeff 24:56
I didn’t. I didn’t use that example.
Doreen 24:57
But I do know that in social settings for example, you when you actively listen to someone that you want to get to know, whether it’s networking, friendships, romantic relationships, whatever it is your children, as you said, actively listening and then following up with those questions. Like, for example, if someone’s telling you what they do for a living, or you’re getting to know somebody in networking situation, I like to say something like, well tell me the best part, like, what do you love most about what you do? You know, what do you love most about being an accountant or being a teacher or whatever it is? They so many times people I think are a little taken aback? Because they don’t expect engagement like that. They don’t expect you to be interested. Especially when it comes to like networking events and things like this.
Jeff 25:52
Yeah. Well, I have a couple of tips here. And I want you to help me with them. I have six tips on how to be a better listener.
Doreen 26:03
Is there a test after?
Jeff 26:04
We’re gonna test our listeners.
Doreen 26:07
No, we never test our listeners, no because we love them.
Jeff 26:10
To make sure our listeners are really listening, actively listening. Okay, what’s number one?
Doreen 26:16
Well cultivate curiosity, right? I like that one. So it’s a great strategy, because active listeners are genuinely interested in understanding the speaker’s message. And that’s what I just said. Right? I’m asking more questions. I want to know more. Number two.
Jeff 26:37
Yeah, posing insightful question. You’re trying to stay away from yes and no answers. In other words, are you in America? I mean, that’s a boring, I mean, the way you ask the guy or the girl, tell me a little bit about your favorite thing about your career? Just say yes or no to that. You’re instilling conversation.
Doreen 26:58
What do you like most about being an accountant is one that I asked, because he was so enthused about telling me about his practice, and so excited. I said, well, tell me like what you like most about it? Oh, boy, opened up a whole conversation. It was amazing.
Jeff 27:13
Like when I’m wearing my real estate hat, I get asked, is the house have impact windows? Yes or no? Yes. Are you gonna ask? What’s your favorite room in the house? And why? So it’s something that is still a conversation? Number three?
Doreen 27:31
What is the number three?
Jeff 27:32
Avoid hastening conversation.
Doreen 27:34
What does that mean?
Jeff 27:35
Well, some people just try to get over real fast is rushing the other person, or even cutting them off sometimes? What would that mean?
Doreen 27:46
Or talking about themselves.
Jeff 27:49
Rushing leads to an argument, you know, getting over it or getting trying to get through what you are getting your words in fast, so the other person can speak, almost instills a defense mechanism. And you’re listening. So it’s very important to take your time and not rush communication.
Doreen 28:09
Number four is stay focused on the topic, meaning veering off subjects isn’t great. Yeah, that’s that happens a lot. I think that I haven’t studied it. But I would think that, you know, just watching people communicate listening to different conversations. There’s a lot of veering off from the original topic, right? And someone will want to interject, well, yes. Like, I did this, or I did that or that reminds me of, and then it’s like, you know, it’s rather, I don’t want to say disrespectful, but it certainly doesn’t promote empathy, compassion, awareness, you know, all the things that I think we want, when we’re engaged with another person.
Jeff 29:02
I think when you’re committed communicating effectively, and I think what you were trying to say is, it’s not about me, it’s about you. So not trying to get it to make it about me, but I want to know more about you. So number five is kind of what we hit on before is refraining from filling in the gaps. So you might be having a conversation and having a dramatic pause or thinking about something and I try to fill in your blank. I try to answer your question for you. I try to talk for you. And usually that’s like you said, changing the subject sometimes, but it’s also a little bit rude that I’m trying to finish your sentence for you. So try to avoid that.
Doreen 29:46
And I think the number six is really very important, which is embrace being wrong. If you’re having a conversation, even a heated conversation with someone. It’s okay. We don’t want like to go there as humans, but it’s okay to say, You know what, my bad I was wrong about that I made a mistake, I misunderstood whatever it is. I think that approach not only improves communication, but it fosters respect and understanding. Which is is key and everyone wants that.
Jeff 30:18
I think it’s difficult to say you’re sorry, and almost every case, but I think that’s probably one of the biggest, best things you can do in communication when it’s called for.
Doreen 30:31
And I don’t know that you necessarily have to get to the point of saying you’re sorry, you can just say I misunderstood or, like the politician I was speaking about. He wasn’t, he was trying to understand, and he had gotten it wrong. And then when he listened a little more, he understood their position, although he didn’t agree with it. So it was like, Oh, Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. I understand it. I still have a different opinion. But I do get it. I do understand where you’re coming from kind of thing.
Jeff 31:03
And I think, to kind of wrap things up, I think one of the things that is very important is choosing your right words. There are offensive words, and there’s defensive words, there’s words that you can use that might end in sight, a defensive posture, or there might be calming words that you could use to defuse.
Doreen 31:25
We’ve done this episode before exam about coming from a place of kindness. It’s amazing how you can defuse what starts off as a negative communication. Simply just changing the level of communication. Most people when they’re on defense, they’re going to you know, not even Yeah, I guess when they’re on defense, they’re gonna try to you know, well, let me show you or let me explain to you, where if you come from a place of like, yeah, I get it. I hear what you’re saying. It diffuses the whole negative, you know, road it could travel down kind of thing.
Jeff 32:04
Well, let’s work on our communication. I think when we do just have that awareness that we always talk about whether your awareness of your thoughts or awareness of your speaking, awareness of your listening, I think everybody’s going to be in a better place.
Doreen 32:18
I will try.
Jeff 32:19
Amen.
Doreen 32:19
Amen.
Jeff 32:20
Yes. All right. So we will talk to you next week. Bye.
Doreen 32:23
Bye, everyone. Have a great week.
Jeff 32:35
You have the vision of what you want your life to look like after divorce, but maybe you just don’t know how to get there. So if you’re ready to take control of your life and want to find out more about our coaching, visit us at lad-coaching.com. That’s LAD lad-coaching.com.
Doreen 32:57
Until next time, have an amazing rest of your day. And remember, yes, you can..
Doreen & Jeff 33:04
Have an amazing life after divorce.
