Ep. 180 – Embracing Vulnerability

Jeff Wilson 0:00
Hello everybody out there. Today we’re going to be discussing vulnerability and courage during divorce. So if you’re ready for Episode 180 let’s get started.

Doreen Yaffa 0:16
Well, hello there, hello there. How are you doing tonight? Looking beautiful. As always, you’re looking so handsome. Thank you.

What’s new? What’s going on? Well, I’m trying to figure out what’s new. I don’t know. Everything seems good, yeah, you know, which is not bad? Which is not bad? Yeah. We just celebrated somebody’s birthday.

We did Samantha, our youngest, she turned 23

I know what is going on? Like they are getting like, I can’t imagine. Like I looked up pictures of her, which I do every birthday. Look at the pictures when they were babies. Oh, boy. I was like, Wait a second. How many tears did that draw? How do we go from teeny weeny, what we used to call her, yeah, to this beautiful, almost six foot tall, like, you know, living in Charleston, all four of the kids have changed and developed so differently than we and when we first got married. No, well, I mean, as far as growing up to be beautiful women, handsome young man,

Jeff Wilson 1:21
and I’m glad they get older, but we don’t, yeah, right, yeah, not.

Doreen Yaffa 1:27
Things are good. I’m really into yoga lately. Why is that? What do you mean? I don’t know. You know I was, I think I’ve been into it on and off. And, you know, with my schedule, it’s a little, it’s a little tough to to find routine, but and make a habit a new habit, or to get into something new and practice it on a regular basis. But I say that tongue in cheek, because I really don’t think it’s that challenging, right? You can find time for the things that are really important, correct? And I don’t know, I just, I’m enjoying it. It’s it’s more of like a it’s a workout class as well, combined with yoga. And so it’s very fast, it’s heated, burn a lot of calories. You get your stretch in. I would say that the average age in the class is like 30,

so I guess it keeps me young too, but it’s fun. As a matter of fact, Samantha has been with me to the classes before. So

Jeff Wilson 2:25
well, I try once a week. I like my yoga as well. I like the spirituality of it and the way that the instructor of the class dives into his history and how he developed in the yogi class lifestyle. Yeah. It’s very interesting,

Doreen Yaffa 2:45
extremely you go to a different yoga studio than I go to

Jeff Wilson 2:50
I go to the beginner class. No,

Doreen Yaffa 2:52
just yours. Is very much about the mind part of yoga, yeah, and the physical part. This is more. This is more on the body part of it, meaning the it poses and it’s fast and it’s, yeah, so I guess there’s all kinds of styles of yoga, but I am learning it, and I do want to study it more, and I I wanted to really kind of dive into it, so we’ll see how it goes. Well,

Jeff Wilson 3:17
the news of the day is, I’m trying my first class with you tomorrow.

Doreen Yaffa 3:21
You are, I don’t know that you’re going to survive. Thank you.

Jeff Wilson 3:26
Thank you. I believe I will.

Doreen Yaffa 3:28
I mean, it’s you, of course you will. But it’s, it’s fast. So I remember the first class that I did, first class that I did, I had to walk out of the room because it’s heated. It’s at 9796 9798 degrees, depending and so I needed, like to just get some air, or I would have fainted. No, not really. Well,

Jeff Wilson 3:54
that may happen. I may have to walk out for a little bit, but we’ll see. Yeah, all good. Looking forward to it.

Doreen Yaffa 3:59
You have to be vulnerable to try something new,

Jeff Wilson 4:02
and have the courage as well, exactly.

Doreen Yaffa 4:05
So it kind of plays into it, right, right? So we were watching, it was on YouTube. We were watching TED Talk. We were watching a TED talk, right? And it was B’nai Brown. We’d seen it before on vulnerability and courage, and she did touch a little bit about divorce. That was one of her, you know, like in in divorce, you’re extremely vulnerable. Obviously, you know, you’re going through a lot. There’s you’re exposed. People are going through your finances. There’s probably some dirty laundry being, you know, tossed around, right, either between lawyers or maybe spouses, and sometimes in the courtroom. So that’s vulnerable. But I think, you know, something that really hit with me is, you know, I’ve met with a lot of people that are contemplating divorce, right? And I think it’s always smart to go and talk. To a lawyer before you make a decision, you know, kind of slow down, get your ducks in a row, and one of the things that’s important to do is talk to a lawyer. Why is that important to this discussion about vulnerability and courage? Because I have people there repeat PNCs, which in our world, PNC is a potential new client, meaning I see them, and then a couple years go by, and then they come back. Maybe the law has changed, or maybe their facts have changed. You know, finances, kids might be older, etc. We go through the issues, and they want to get a divorce, but they don’t have the courage, because it takes a lot to make that decision. They’ve decided that they’re unhappy and they’re ready to move on. They know they don’t want to be married, but the known is more comfortable than the unknown. Of getting divorced totally get that right, right, and you have to be vulnerable to make that commitment absolutely right, because you know that it’s going to be different new, and everything changes, really. So it takes both courage and vulnerability to say, Yeah, I’m done. It’s time to move on and to make that decision. Now, sometimes you’re on the opposite side of the receiving side of it, meaning that your spouse wants a divorce, and so you don’t have a lot of choice, right? You’re still going to be vulnerable, right? So

Jeff Wilson 6:31
Well, being aware and acknowledging the fact that the unknown is scary, what you’re about to go through is scary, and presenting yourself as open to the vulnerability that is that will lead into the courage that you need to go through with the divorce.

Doreen Yaffa 6:50
Yeah. So can you explain that again? Well, when

Jeff Wilson 6:54
you’re aware of the potential of being vulnerable, right? In other words, you’re opening yourself up to that uncomfortable feeling. Well, let’s stop

Doreen Yaffa 7:05
for a minute. Okay, okay, an example would be

Jeff Wilson 7:11
for an example, you’re about to sell your home that you’ve been living in and having to find a new place to live, right?

Doreen Yaffa 7:18
That’s probably going to make you feel vulnerable. Yes, I think you go into the class tomorrow and trying something new is a little bit vulnerable. That is true too, right? Yeah, I think that deciding for divorce to divorce definitely is put in a state of courage and vulnerability, right,

Jeff Wilson 7:37
all right? And the courage, the courage that you get from that vulnerability will lead to flourishing relationships. It’ll definitely lead to you feeling a little bit more comfortable and confident with yourself.

Doreen Yaffa 7:51
Well, what do you mean by courage from the vulnerability? Well, when

Jeff Wilson 7:55
you open yourself up to vulnerability, that allows you to say, I have the strength and the courage to move forward and go past the vulnerability. I see it a little bit.

Doreen Yaffa 8:06
I see it the same. They see it different. How’s that? I almost envision vulnerability and courage on anything that you’re putting yourself out there on, right? Just happen to be talking about divorce, right? Is, like, two separate identities, you know, I’m saying, like, like, you have, you have one part of you that’s going to be vulnerable, right? And that might feel, we talk a lot about thoughts that create feelings. So the thought might be, yeah, I’m going to be out there, I’m going to be vulnerable. I’m going to be exposed. And the feelings of vulnerability probably, let’s think about some of the scariness, scared, nervous, right? Anxious, fear, maybe sadness. Fear, no. Fear. It could be sad, sad, right? Vulnerable, definitely a feeling of like, tension, right? Your heart rate is probably going to get up a little bit because it’s like, Oh, I gotta encounter this right? Lack of confidence. Well, that’s not a feeling, that’s a thought, right, okay, but anyhow, so you have that vulnerable side to you, and then the courage side of it is that thought that says, Yeah, I am afraid. I am scared, but and I know I’m going to be vulnerable going through this divorce or having to sell the house and go somewhere new and whatever it is, going to yoga class tomorrow, right? Yeah, but the courage side has an emotion of but I can do it right, but this isn’t going to kill me, but I know that I’ll survive, but I can do hard things.

Jeff Wilson 9:52
I also deserve fill in the blank, correct. I deserve a better life. Courage,

Doreen Yaffa 9:59
the courage. Courage comes from a place of strength. I think when you wait, if you had to put it into a physical like, how does it feel? You know, the vulnerability is a scared part of it, and the kind of tentative and the anxious part and the vulnerable and the courage part is like, but I can do this. I can do hard things. It’s that enthusiastic without what other words would come to mind? Well,

Jeff Wilson 10:21
it’s embracing change, right? But the feeling, enthusiasm,

Doreen Yaffa 10:25
excitement, I don’t know what else.

Jeff Wilson 10:31
Well, it’s also it could be anticipation of the betterment of you yourself, but

Doreen Yaffa 10:40
I was trying to get to the feelings, but you’re not gonna go there, so I’ll move along. Anyhow. I’m just saying, Wait, I

Jeff Wilson 10:48
don’t wanna, I don’t wanna leave what you’re trying to search for. Give me a little bit more detail, just saying,

Doreen Yaffa 10:53
What does courage feel like? Courage feels stronger, right? It feels like I’m brave. I can

Jeff Wilson 11:00
do this well, it builds my confidence,

Doreen Yaffa 11:03
right? But I’m saying it takes both feelings. So you’re feeling anxious, right? You’re at that’s a vulnerability, and you’re also feeling like, I can do this excitement. That’s why I’m saying. It’s like almost two different beings, personalities within can’t do one without the other. You need both. If you’re vulnerable, that’s going to bring those feelings that I just said, you know, like scared, anxious, all the things, but you got to have courage to get through the vulnerability, right, right? And, but a Brown was saying that that they go hand, hand in hand, hand in hand, right? And so divorce throws you into that circumstance. Throws you into it, right?

Jeff Wilson 11:50
Exactly because you sometimes you’re vulnerable, like, I could say, I’m canceling my yoga class tomorrow. I’m not going when you are in a situation of divorce, sometimes you can’t cancel divorce. Yeah, they do. Well you well, if somebody else wants a divorce and you’re immersed into it, no. But

Doreen Yaffa 12:09
what I’m saying is, my first example was, I have clients that come visit with me almost on a yearly basis. Oh, okay. And they’re they’re vulnerable. They’re feel vulnerable about getting divorced or scared. They understand that it’s going to put them in a very vulnerable situation. They haven’t yet got the courage it takes both. It takes both, yeah, to make to make it happen. And

Jeff Wilson 12:34
it could be that couple of situations in the in the marriage that push them over the edge to say, Okay, I accept the vulnerability, and I now need the courage to move forward. Yeah?

Doreen Yaffa 12:45
Well, yeah. I mean, I think what you’re trying to say is that things may have gotten so bad that now they have more courage, because they’re saying, Well, I ain’t tolerant that anymore, right? Yeah, that’s not going to happen. That’s why a lot of people, I think I’m going to get a little you know, how I always get down the rabbit hole, but you know, divorce is generally, from my experience, don’t happen as a result of one event, like someone is unfaithful, right? Right? Okay, it’s years of probably, issues going on. It’s just that one straw that broke the camel’s back, and people get hypersensitive and focused on that, right? But it’s really a lot of things like accumulated, cumulative, right? And so sometimes it just takes that one thing that the person just says, Yep, that’s it. Now they have the courage to go forward, right? But we don’t want to wait for that. You know what I’m saying? We don’t want to wait for that. What I’m trying to suggest, let’s do a little coaching for a minute. If you’re in a bad marriage, you know, 50% let’s just say, more or less of people get divorced, right? They make it to the other side. They survive like you’re going to survive. You know, is it really fair to stay in a marriage that’s not gone wrong, and that you realize I don’t want to be with this person anymore. I love this person. I loved this person. We had some beautiful things together, maybe children, memories, all the things. But you know, it’s time to move on. It’s time to get that courage and love that just says I love you and me so much that I don’t want to live a lie anymore, right? That’s the courage. I don’t want to live a lie. I want to do this for both of us, because I know we’re both going to end up okay. I don’t think it has to be all about something horrible happening in order for people to get divorced, so much of the subconscious or the is it like needs to hold on to something negative in order to justify their reason for divorce? Well,

Jeff Wilson 14:56
I think it’s the word divorce itself has. Such so many negative connotations, that as soon as you hear about it, oh, I’m so sorry to hear about it, when you know it’s like a celebration of life, you should have a celebration of divorce where you’re

Doreen Yaffa 15:11
it’s not that easy. I don’t think people can just jump there, Jeff, I don’t say it’s easy. I mean you and I landed on our feet, and we did well, and people do, but it takes time to work through that, to get to the other side. I mean, I think one of the things that was really nice, I enjoyed in B’nai Brown’s TED Talk. Also, she talked about vulnerability to the feeling. Also, in other words, if you’re feeling sad or upset or angry or whatever it is, don’t try to just push past it with a lot of courage. You need to live in that negativity to then realize and be strong enough to get the courage to go to the other side, because, because you may have enough get up and go to have the courage, but if you don’t have that peace, it’s not going to sustain

Jeff Wilson 16:05
very long. Yeah, she talks a lot about self compassion and having the feelings of fear and and sadness and all the difficult things that you’re going to go through, but have the sense of self compassion for yourself that it may be the vulnerability is always going to be acceptable. Well,

Doreen Yaffa 16:31
yes, she encourages people to treat themselves as worthy and like they would treat a best friend or even just a friend, uses an example exactly because so many of us, I think, are so so hard on ourselves, especially I think today with social media and everything that people just have access to, which a lot of it, you know, is people at their best, Right? So it’s not even complete. It’s not a complete picture of life. It’s just, hey, look at me. I’m all dressed up and I look good, or I’m at this place, or I ate this or I’m on this vacation, or here are my kids, you know, all the beautiful part of life, there’s the other part of it too, right, right? The negative part of it, like divorce. But what we were talking about is the negative. I guess a lot of people, well, most people would say that divorce is a negative thing, because nobody goes into a marriage intending to get divorced. Plus there’s a lot of religious reasons, you know, and history in in, you know, staying married and what that looks like in your religious beliefs. So, yeah,

Jeff Wilson 17:43
there’s been a few times where you said, when somebody’s either harder on themselves or lacking self compassion, you know, how would you say? How would you talk to your friend if they were coming to you with the same situation, how would you handle a friend that was coming to you with the going through, what you’re going through, would you be that hard on them? And and when you do that, it makes somebody kind of aha, that aha moment that, yeah, I’m being a little bit hard on

Doreen Yaffa 18:13
myself. Well, I not even a little bit, well, you like to use the word little bit. I don’t think little bit. I think people are really hard on themselves. Listeners know what I’m talking about. We are judging ourselves so harshly all day long, right? Yeah, so talking about friends and treating how you would speak to your friend in whatever your circumstances, to give yourself kind of a break, like if I was talking to my best friend, but my best friend is myself. How am I going to talk to myself? Right? You know, when you’re looking in the mirror and you’re going, Oh God, I put on a little weight. Or who’s going to want this body after, you know, three kids and now I’m going to be single again, or I’m not going to I got to give half of the money away, so I’m not going to have dollars. And you know, all the negative stuff that goes along with thoughts about divorce, you know treating yourself well and realize the negative, soft self talk is really important. So let’s talk about courage, right? The courage to do that, the courage to treat yourself well, to be vulnerable, to try new things after divorce, because it is such a platform for really recreating your life, because you have to, you’re going to be different. It’s going to be different. So why not take that opportunity and really use a lot of courage and design and be vulnerable and get out there and create something amazing for yourself?

Jeff Wilson 19:38
Easier said than done, right? It is. But

Doreen Yaffa 19:41
you know what? She talks also in the TED talk about, who wants to live like this, just like normal, like life, right? You know, in order to have that, that when you put your head on your pillow and your, let’s say, in your 80s and 90s, or even hundreds, nowadays, you want to look back. And probably go like, Hey, I was vulnerable. I put myself out there, and I had courage, and I tried. And you’re going to say sometimes you did a great job and you were successful, and other times, you know, maybe not, but you can always say that you tried. Worst thing would be not trying and you could have done

Jeff Wilson 20:18
hopefully at 100 I can’t remember anything I did. Still remember. I will remember everything. Everything. Also talks a lot about the support team. Well, yeah, having friends, yeah, with friends, yeah. And having the courage, because divorce does bring on isolation and a feeling of loneliness and having that vulnerability to reach out to a support team. Well,

Doreen Yaffa 20:46
I think a lot of people are isolated and become find it challenging to socialize because they do feel vulnerable, right? So they’re kind of protecting themselves by not getting out there. But there are people going through circumstances just like you, right? And you can find support, maybe through a group or support group, or a coach like us, or potentially, maybe there’s someone in your family that you trust, you know close friends, so just tell them. Just be honest with them. Hey, having a little bit of tough time getting through this. I could really use some support. You’d be surprised when you ask for help. How many people are willing to step up and really,

Jeff Wilson 21:30
but how much courage does that take to ask live

Doreen Yaffa 21:33
courage people? There’s a lot of people out there, including myself. We don’t like to ask anybody to help us. We don’t, you know, we can do it all ourselves, and we don’t want to bother people. And

Jeff Wilson 21:46
you know, all the things you want to done, ready? Good, do it yourself. No, not even

Doreen Yaffa 21:49
that. You just don’t want to, you know that, but you don’t want to bother people, typically, right, right? But ask for help. This is a time when you’re going through divorce that you really need your friends and family, and you think about it, when there’s a death in our family, everybody gathers and they support you. They support you, right? And in various religions, you sit Shiva, right? And you celebrate the life of the deceased, and people bring you food and they comfort you, and they want to do things for you. Well, same in divorce, meaning, meaning that it is such a vulnerable time for you and a morning, right? And so people don’t just readily, sometimes come out and help, right? Um, because a lot of people, I think, do have stigma. There’s a stigma with divorce, right? Then you have the circumstance also, when you have mutual friends, and people get divorced and they’re friends with both the husband and the wife, everybody kind of scatters, right? Where is everybody? They don’t want to be involved. They don’t want to pick sides. So create your new life, yeah, create your new your new group of

Jeff Wilson 23:02
friends. Have support groups well. I mean, is it mostly that going through a divorce, they don’t want to offer their help, or you’re not vulnerable enough

Doreen Yaffa 23:16
to ask for that help? I think it’s both. I think it’s, I don’t think people don’t want to help. I think sometimes they just don’t know how to help. They they don’t they don’t know how to help. When there’s a death in a family or you kind of, you don’t know what to do either. But there’s some protocols right in divorce, not so much. You don’t have these things, right? So I think it’s people, they don’t want to get involved. They don’t know how to help. They don’t know if it’s maybe too much for you to share.

Jeff Wilson 23:51
What else? Well, maybe it’s a little reverse play. Maybe it’s the person that wants to help. They should have the courage. They should have the the get rid of their vulnerability, to reach out to somebody that needs help.

Doreen Yaffa 24:03
Well, that’d be a whole different podcast. Love that would be,

and that’s, that’s something other than

Jeff Wilson 24:10
divorce episode 181

Speaker 1 24:14
let’s talk about all the people that should be helping, all the divorce people, right? You know? And we’ll do a podcast just

Doreen Yaffa 24:21
for them. But it is true. Look, if anybody’s going through a hard time, just reach out. Sometimes, just sending a little message or card or text message, whatever it is, makes a big difference to people

Jeff Wilson 24:34
when, evidently, bene says that embracing the vulnerability and embracing self compassion, all the things that we’re talking about, is going to lead to that new beginning, you know, and the the new chapter that you are going to realize that you deserve.

Doreen Yaffa 24:53
Well, of course, that’s the summary, yeah, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s what it’s all about. Yeah, you got to be vulnerable. You got to have the courage. You got to figure out how to find it. You got to live first in the bad part of it. It’s okay to be sad. It’s okay. I remember telling Samantha once, talking about Samantha, teeny weeny, shout out to her, telling her when she was going through a hard time. And I said, Look, something like, you can be sad for the next two days. You know, I’m saying, like, remember that, yes,

Jeff Wilson 25:28
you gave her time limit. That was so cool. Gave her what? You gave her a time limit to get be sad well,

Doreen Yaffa 25:33
but it was like, she she wanted to stay home. And I said, Yeah, you could stay home from school, but you get, like, one day Monday, though, and then we kind of have to start snapping out of it, not to push it, because I wanted her to feel her feelings, of course. But just saying, like, let’s see if we can put a little bit of a time line on it. Say, oh yeah, let’s be really sad for like, a couple days, or, you know, whatever it is. And then let’s start to move on little baby steps.

Jeff Wilson 26:00
If I give you a little I’m going to give you a little shout out. Because one thing that you do that I really, really appreciate, not really, really, really, really, is you allow people their feelings. And I think in today’s with either social media or the fast paced world that we’re in or the craziness, yeah, you want to, you want to push down your feelings, because that’s not acceptable, right? Or say, I’m not supposed to be sad. I’m not supposed to be everybody’s happy. Everybody’s happy, yeah? So you know when I, whenever I come to you for something, you’re like, Well, tell me about that. And you, you edify a feeling, and it kind of makes a person have the courage, like we said before, to work past the vulnerability, knowing that it’s acceptable. Oh, yeah,

Doreen Yaffa 26:54
nice. Remember when we went out to dinner last week we decided that we were going to listen. Yes, I did. I don’t know where I read this. I read this in a book. I can’t remember which one wasn’t your yoga book. No, no, it was another book, okay, but I was reading, maybe it was one of my yoga books, because it was about, really, people feel generally, this is what it this summary that they have to respond so quickly when someone’s engaging with them and try to help them or figure it out.

Jeff Wilson 27:30
Men are from Mars. No, no,

Doreen Yaffa 27:32
but I’m and I don’t want to be like the whole male field, female thing, but sometimes just listening, do we really listen to people? So we went to dinner, and I said, Would you do this with me? So the thing is, you speak for three minutes and about anything you want, anything you want, you could talk about the menu. You could talk about something serious. You could talk about, you know, whatever it is you want to talk about for three minutes, and then the other person is going to repeat back outward for word, but kind of summarize what you said, what you meant, and we did it, yes. How’d it go? I

Jeff Wilson 28:16
thought it went well. I mean, you were all smiles at the end of the three minutes. It was awkward, though it was, it was very awkward.

Doreen Yaffa 28:27
Let’s try that tonight. Oh my god, yeah, I have

Jeff Wilson 28:31
the habit of anticipating what you’re gonna saying and interrupting with what I anticipate you’re going to say, Well, I’m saying in front of all the millions of listeners out but

Doreen Yaffa 28:45
I couldn’t find my my laptop. And as I was trying to recall, like, where I was, and I’m like, wait a second, I think. And then you, like, started to take me down what I was thinking. I’m like, oh my god, I always had it.

Jeff Wilson 29:00
But no, we were able to find the computer. But you

Doreen Yaffa 29:03
know what? It was really weird, and then we’ll wrap it up, is that when we were having our three minute conversation, which we only did two of those, right? One, you did one, um, this, like, weird, looking at you, right? Like we net when we go out for our date night, yeah, we don’t generally, like, sit there and look at each other. And you know when you’re first dating someone, how you look at each other and you listen to them and not trying to figure out, Is this person a crazy person?

Jeff Wilson 29:36
But it was weird. Yeah, it was. It was strange only because you get used to the back and forth, no, and when there’s only and when there’s just one conversation coming at you, it is very awkward. But when you try, yeah, when you try it, though, try something new, like that, you. I felt closer to you as well, just listening for three minutes, but I

Doreen Yaffa 30:03
think it made us feel vulnerable. At least I felt vulnerable having you just listen to me like really listen to me. So I don’t know. Anyhow, I know we went down a rabbit hole. Sorry, but it did make me feel vulnerable, and I thought it was kind of cool. So it maybe somebody out there wants to try it, have the courage to try it. Yeah, try it with whomever. Try it with one of your friends, or your daughter or son, or maybe whoever.

Jeff Wilson 30:34
Okay, well, just remember, okay, to be vulnerable. It leads to the courage do anything you want in life doesn’t lead to the curse. It’s a big part of the curve, a big part of it. It’s

Doreen Yaffa 30:45
vulnerability and courage, being vulnerable, Courage going together. You need both, right? And they can create this beautiful thing for you as you move on and create the next chapter of your amazing life.

Jeff Wilson 31:00
Amen. We’ll see you next week. All right,

Doreen Yaffa 31:03
everybody, have an amazing week. Bye. Bye.

Jeff Wilson 31:07
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