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Ep. 19 – Less Drama More Mama with Pam Howard

This is for all those mothers out there who struggle with parenting after divorce.

Pam is a life coach who focuses on helping women gain control over themselves and their kids and parent without guilt.

Listen to her lessons learned and how she has turned her personal experiences into a business of helping other moms.

Go to to find out more about her coaching services!


Hi, everybody. Doreen here. I have such a special treat for you today. I have a guest speaker. I have Pam Howard here from less drama, more mama. Who’s here to talk to us about some parenting things. So let’s get started. What if I told you that your divorce could end up being one of the best things that could happen to you?

I’m Doreen ya. Marital and family, lawyer, and certified life coach. I’ve been coaching and consulting women for over 26 years. I’ve seen it all. Now. I’m sharing my expertise and my own personal experiences to help you turn a difficult time into your amazing divorce. So Pam, um, one of the major things that my clients, mostly women in the middle of our post divorce deal with is how are they gonna co-parent how are they gonna parent during the divorce, but mostly after the divorce.

So I wanted to first introduce you and we’ll talk a little bit about parent support, how to support yourself. because I think that that helps to make a better mama and how to get support within the community. So a little bit about you, I’m just gonna do a little introduction and then you can chime in.

Okay. So you have an amazing coaching business and a podcast, which I noticed today. I think there’s 173 episodes. That’s right. and all kinds of amazing topics. I went in, I looked, I kind of listened and there’s a lot of great free material in there, but your coaching business as a master coach is less drama, more mama, great name.

And you’ve been focusing primarily on helping moms who want to be and have a better relationship with their mom. I mean, with their mom, with their child yes. Okay. And you’re a master coach and you’re also a social worker. Yes. Okay. So let’s get started. Tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe your background and how you got into all this.

Okay. So, um, I went to, uh, graduate schools for social work and I became a social worker. And then, and in. Right outta graduate school. I started working with teenagers and their families and did that for a little while. Then I had kids of my own and took a break from working. I was a stay at home mom for several years and, you know, Found I thought that I was gonna be like the best mom just from day one, because I had always wanted kids and I was really good with kids and I loved kids, but I had never held a newborn.

I had never changed a diaper in my life. So I really had no idea what I was doing. And then that’s so familiar to me by the way. Yeah, the same boat and then when. My, you know, oldest daughter was old enough to talk. She was old enough to talk back. And so I was like, wait, wait, what is happening? Why is she talking back?

Why is she saying no? You know, I’m supposed to be in charge here. I’m supposed to be in control. And I found myself yelling a lot, found myself, um, You know, being the, a kind of parent that I didn’t wanna be. I had always told myself that I didn’t wanna be a yeller. I didn’t wanna, my dad was a yeller. He was, um, you know, there were a lot of slamming doors in my house growing up and the silent treatment and things like that.

And I didn’t wanna be that way. And then I found myself doing the exact same thing. So I went in search for help and, and I found it, uh, and then decided, you know, this was what I really wanted to do is to. Moms and families. So that really for the kids, cuz I do love kids and I knew what it was like to grow up with a parent who was very reactive.

And I didn’t want that for my kids and I don’t want it for any kids. So I, I love helping moms to be able to calm down and you know, just figure out how to shift control from trying to control their kids, to focusing on themselves and controlling themselves. I think you mentioned you have two children and they are two girls, which, you know, I have three girls, so that’s amazing.

I think they’re what, 12 and 16 now? Yes, almost 16. What? Like two more weeks and then she’ll be 16. You’ve got it. The preteen. And you’ve already been through that stage. And now you’re onto the major teenage years as well. That’s right. Yeah. Been there, done that. and I have to tell you. I just think parenting is amazing.

  1. My girls have been such a blessing and yes, it’s been hard and it’s been difficult and there’s good and bad days. And like we talk in coaching about that 50, 50 balance, and that happens in parenting and your relationship with your daughter. But like I, this morning reached out to them and just told them how much I love them just in a text.

And I got the most beautiful, just little, one words. Thanks, mom. I needed that. From what my youngest, my oldest just sent me one of those little heart texts back. And my middle one said, mom, I love you too. And I know how much you love me. And that was like, oh, started my entire week, my entire day off to the right, you know, right on the right path.

But it’s challenging being a parent. And you’ve been through a divorce. I think you were divorced about six years ago. Mm-hmm . And I went through my own divorce. And so there’s, I think there’s, you know, our listeners, my listeners are specifically women who are going through divorce and post divorce. And I think we have unique issues in the sense that we are not in an intact family when we’re going through divorce and post divorce, you know, and I, as I tell, and I, and I try to explain to my listeners and my clients is that.

Every divorce comes in a different package, meaning no, it’s not a one size fits. All right. Um, I happen to have a ver an excellent co-parent. Um, dad, his name is Sam. I talk a lot about him, but not everybody has that. You know, many of us have a parent on the other side. That’s not a Sam. Um, so, you know, those there’s unique issues with who you’re dealing with and dealing with a divorce and, you know, you have firsthand knowledge cuz you’ve been through it yourself, right?

Yes . Yeah. And, and my parents divorced too when I was 11. And so, you know, I saw their, what they went through and it was not, it was not amicable. It was not pretty, um, And I never wanted that for my kids. You know, I always said like, I’m never gonna get divorced and, um, tried very hard to prevent it from happening, but there’s a, I think there’s a lot of guilt that goes along with that.

You know, my parents divorced as well, but I was very young. I was five and my sister was three. So. I don’t have a lot of recollection of that. You know, it’s a very faint, faint memory. But what I do remember is my mom who never remarried, never had another serious relationship that I was aware of as a child, um, or even to this day.

And she’s in her eighties, how she struggled so much co-parented or parenting by herself, cuz my dad was an absent. mm-hmm but completely devoid of any, um, desire to be in a relationship. So it was a struggle. And when I look back at it and I think about it now, as, you know, having my own children who are now adults having gone through my own divorce, my mom struggled a lot, you know, and I.

Really appreciate that now. Um, because working two, three jobs, trying to make ends, meet, trying to figure out how to get us two from and all that. It’s, it’s challenging. Um, yeah, the least, you know, but I think dealing with controlling our brain and our thoughts about it. As you and I both know being life coaches is probably, I think you would agree.

That’s probably one of the biggest factors, right? Such a huge gift to be able to have these tools and to be able to help ourselves through these kinds of issues. Yeah, for sure. So what would you say to a mom who just finished her divorce and is having these thoughts of, you know, like where to turn and how to be the best mom that she can.

Well first I would tell her that those thoughts are perfectly normal, right? Whatever she’s feeling is normal. And I would probably tell her. Being the best mom, she can be really starts with taking care of herself first. It sounds so counterintuitive because as moms we wanna be there for our kids and help them through the divorce and make sure they’re okay.

So we put all of our needs, all of their needs above our own, and then we can end up feeling really depleted and exhausted and irritable. . And so then we create the very outcome we’re hoping to avoid, which is not giving them the best version of us as moms. And so the main thing I would tell her is just to focus the majority of her attention on the one and only person she can control, which is herself.

And I know that’s really hard for a lot of moms to do. Yeah. But that is, that is one of the main things that I work with my clients on, in coaching is learning how to. , you know, take your power back and that’s where all your power lies is in what you can control. So, so do you have, and I kind of, um, maybe just throwing it out there, but do you have an example of maybe like taking back the control, something that comes to mind that.

Well, I mean, most of my clients come to me because they wanna stop yelling at their kids. Right. They’re just, , they’re, they’re a work reaction, right? yeah, they’re overwhelmed. They’re frustrated their kids, you know, they have to repeat themselves a hundred times whatever. And so an example would be like, if, if my, if I’ve asked my, my daughter to, you know, put away her shoes or something like that, and she doesn’t do it rather than.

Try to, you know, rather than yelling at her and trying to get her to do something I can calmly say, you know, um, The next, or the better example would be like, if I’ve told her a million times, and then I say to her, you know, the next time I have to remind you, the shoes are going a Goodwill or something like that.

Right. Right. And then the next time it happens, which it will, because she’s, , she’s a kid. Right. Then all I have to do is calmly follow through with the expectation that I set and the consequence that I set, which is the shoes go to Goodwill, and then she can get upset and she can have a fit. I don’t have to be upset because I’ve told her, look, this is what I’m gonna do.

This is what you’re gonna, I’m asking you to do. You didn’t do it. I’m gonna do this instead. And so there is no, you know, I’m not fighting with her constantly to get her, to put her shoes away. I’m like, listen, this is what’s gonna happen. This is what I’m gonna do. That’s what I have control over. And so then I can just calmly follow through with what I said I’m gonna do.

That’s kind of what I’m saying with taking your power back and focusing on. So I did an episode and I don’t know what number it is as we’re having our conversation today about boundaries. Mm-hmm I think we’re talking about setting boundaries. Yeah. And how you clearly told her, if you leave your shoes out again, mm-hmm and what will happen is they will go to Goodwill.

And following through with what you’ve explained will happen. I think that’s, whereas moms, we get a lot of this guilt, you know, you talked about guilt. It’s like, oh, but they’re her favorite? You know, your brain goes to, she left him out again. I’m so frustrated. You wanna yell. And then it’s like, it’s her favorite pair of shoes?

I really don’t wanna put ’em to Goodwill. They cost a lot of money, whatever it was. And trying to deal with that thought, but then carrying through with what you said you’re gonna do. Yeah. And you, you wanna make sure, I mean, I, I think that consequences really are like a last resort when it comes to dealing with kids, but, you know, so you could, you could.

Take a totally different direction where you say, you know, what’s gonna help you remember to put your shoes away and put it on them and like ask them some questions and get curious. And, you know, I know it’s so hard for you to remember, but you know, what’s a plan that you can come up with that will help you to remember before you get to just, I’m gonna take your shoes away.

You know what I mean? so, yeah, but I was just using that as an example that just came to my head right away. Well, I used to have, I remember when the kids were little and this is before I became a, a life coach. I used to have what I called a Sunday bag. And I’ve heard of that before. And I don’t know where I picked it up.

You know, it was a million years ago, but they were little. And I used to say, listen, if you don’t put, let’s say your shoes away, they’re gonna go in the Sunday bag mm-hmm and you’re not gonna get ’em back until next Sunday. Mm-hmm um, so I don’t know. And I, most of the time. I didn’t follow through with it, cuz I didn’t understand the importance of boundaries.

First of all, what a boundary is, second of all, making sure the person that you’re setting the boundary with, which in this case is the child understands it clearly and then, you know, actually follow through on it. But, um, I have to tell you and I’ve talked about it. Like I said, in a further, a previous podcast episode, is it cha it can really change your life, you know, to, to know that and take your control.

Yes. So, you know, a common theme that I hear from my clients is that they’re having a lot of feelings of guilt. Like we talked about and how the divorce has is, or will affect the children, their child moving forward, that their main focus is that they want their kids of course, to be happy and to grow up feeling good about themselves.

And. they feel like they’ve maybe put, and this is what clients have told me, wrench in it by permitting the divorce by getting divorced. So I feel like a lot of the listeners probably have that same feeling of guilt on some level, or they’ve dealt with it at some point mm-hmm . Um, so any advice that you can give to us as to how, when you’re struggling with those feelings of.

How you can move past them or deal with them. Yeah. I mean, I can really relate to that. I, I had guilt about my divorce and, um, you know, I wasn’t the one who wanted the divorce. And so I think that. you know, how the divorce affects our kids will really depend on how they think about it. Okay. And so we don’t know how it’ll affect them and different kids will have different experiences, right.

And while we can’t control our kids’ experience, we can influence their thoughts with our own. And so like, if, if you’re feeling guilty because you’re thinking, oh my gosh, now they’re not gonna feel happy and good about themselves. Or I’ve ruined, I’ve ruined their life. Then you’re gonna show up one way as a mom, but, or if you’re thinking, you know what this divorce happened, maybe I wanted it.

Maybe I didn’t, but it happened. Right. And my kids are gonna be okay, sure. They’re gonna have ups and downs. Just like all kids do, but we’re all gonna be okay. Right. You know, and if you believe that. Then it’s more likely that your kids are gonna believe that because you are gonna be showing up in such a different way as a mom of like, you know what, let’s just get through, like, this is, this is the truth of our life and we’re gonna move forward.

So it sounds like, like in your coaching, working with mom on how to rethink her story about the divorce. Yes. Oh, I love doing that work so much. I do a lot of work with, with clients around rewriting the story of their past. Um, and I did that work for myself too, after my divorce, which was really powerful and.

Coaching is so awesome because it’s really about creating the future, right? We’re not focused on the past, we’re focused on the future and what do we wanna create now? Right. Given the circumstances that we wanna think about it and how do we wanna move forward. Right. So, yeah, and that work on retelling that story I’m sure is not something that happens for most of your clients in a quick kind of.

I’m sure this takes work, right? Like anything. Yeah. Well, it’s really about, you know, helping them rewrite, like, because when I say rewrite the story, it’s like, there are the facts of our past and things that happened. And then the way that we think about them, the way that we’ve interpreted them and what we make them mean.

And so what I help people do is to look at those facts and say, what else could this mean? Right. and, and we just kind of open it up to explore, like, what else, what are the possibilities of what this fact, you know, he said this, or he did that, what else could it mean? I’m making it mean this horrible thing.

Right, right. You know, and I can give an example of my own. Like I used to interpret everything that my ex did through this lens of, well, and this is after divorce, but like I used. Look at everything through the lens of he’s looking for a fight. Right. And so I would get a text message and immediately interpret it as you know, um, like I would interpret the tone that I thought he was writing it in.

And I would think that he was looking for a fight. And so the result was that I showed up. Defensive. I showed up with my Dukes up, ready to fight right. Whether or not he was really looking for a fight or not, I don’t really know, but that’s how I was interpreting it. And so then I was showing up in this way that was creating a fight.

Right. And that, and so a snowball. Right? Yeah. And so then when I realized that I was like, oh, maybe he’s not looking for a fight, maybe I’m wrong. You know? And, and so. I that changed so much for me just dropping that whole story, that everything was a fight. Right, right. Yeah. so I talked before about, you know, we all come from different facts, thoughts, situations surrounding our divorce.

Each one is unique. Each one is different and you know, then you have this new family after. because I, I think a lot about, and I try to explain or, or get the, my clients to rethink their story. That divorce is not necessarily a failure in every aspect. We, all of us have many beautiful children, many beautiful memories.

There’s many good things that happened in a marriage. And now you’ve got this new family that’s divorced, but you’re still co-parenting together. on some level and how you do that requires work, you know, and, and effort mm-hmm . So do you have any thoughts to share with us on co-parenting with your ex who may not be the easiest person in the world to, with.

Yes. Um, I , I mean, I didn’t really have an easy time communicating with my ex, especially in the beginning. And I I’m gonna sound like a broken record, but really the, again, the, you know, I had to realize that the only person I could control was me. And so instead of focusing so much on him and what is he gonna say and what is he gonna do?

I had to turn my, you know, my focus to who do I want to be? Who do I wanna be as a co-parent? Who do I wanna be as a mom, as an ex-wife. right. And, and just focus on that. Um, and I, I just, um, when I started to do that, it, it just made all the difference in the world because I realized like, you know, I’m spinning my wheels.

I’m wasting a lot of energy trying to make him do things the way that I do him or the way that I think is right. And it’s like, you know, Kids really can benefit from parents with different perspectives. kids can, you know, can benefit from different rules in different houses. Like, you know, it’s it’s okay.

They’ll, they’ll learn to adapt and that’s, I’ve just found that’s that’s the real world. That’s the real world. Yeah. And you just have to, as a mom, it’s so hard, but you have to let go. You have to constantly be letting go as a mom. Right. Even when you send your kids to school, you don’t know what, what they’re being exposed to there, what the teachers are telling them and the kids and all of that.

So it’s like this constant process of letting go and it’s, it’s not easy for sure. But it’s, it’s something that is very helpful. Did you find that either with your own experiences or with your clients that when. Mom is able to maybe react differently to dad mm-hmm um, with regard to co-parenting and not to be, I’m gonna use the word defense on defense or coming in with a fight in mind.

Mm-hmm um, do you find that most of your clients, when they do that, they see a different result in the other parent or a different behavior? Yeah. Yeah. It, yeah, it’s, it’s not always right away, but sometimes it can be right. It’s like, because they’re probably like, like they already think that mom is gonna react always in a certain way.

Right. Mm-hmm condition. And now if you reacting differently, Right. So sometimes, sometimes kids will push back kids or the exes will push back on that. Right. They’re like, wait a minute. This is not the way things go in our relationship. And so they’ll push back or they’ll, you know, try to get, get you riled up, but if you can just stay calm and, and, you know, in control of yourself, then eventually yeah.

The pattern changes. So. Let’s talk. Um, I know we’re touching a lot of different subjects, but I really there’s so many yummy things to talk about as I say, but, um, you know, there’s that saying? It takes a village to raise a child. Mm. Um, you know, and so finding resources out there in the world to raise a child, do you have any advice on what that might look like?

Yes. So I know that it can be so difficult for women to ask for help. But I think when you’re a mom and especially a single mom, you just need to suck it up and ask for as much of it as you can. Right. At least until you can find your footing and get into a routine where you feel confident and like, okay, I’ve got this.

And I have found. People are more than willing to help me out, especially when I can return the favor or offer my appreciation by giving them something in return. And I would just advise moms to like, make a list of all the supports in their lives. Like it doesn’t have to just be family and friends. Your child’s pediatrician is a support.

Your child’s teachers are supports, right? Maybe you have a pastor or a rabbi that you can turn to, like who are the mom? That maybe you could carpool to a birthday party with, or can you hire somebody to come clean your house once a month? Right. And of course, I think that every mom needs a life coach. So a hundred percent.

I agree with you again. Yeah. But finding those resources. I remember when I got divorced and I was like, cause I’ve always been a full time working mom, you know, very business minded and trying to balance everything with three kids. I was so afraid to ask for help. I was so afraid to say, Hey, um, you know, like Susie, one of my, you know, moms, would you mind taking the kids today?

Could you help me out with this? I have a meeting that’s gonna run. I was so afraid. And so I was struggling all the time on how to be there on time and have to balance everything. And once I asked, I was. Overwhelmed with gratitude as to the number of people that were willing and really wanted to be a resource wanted to help.

Yeah. It like, they were like, God, I was waiting for you to ask that so that, you know, we could have, I could ask you for some help and you know, it was amazing. Yeah. And what were you afraid of? You know, I was afraid of not being in control of everything. I was afraid of looking weak. I was say afraid of even my ex thinking, oh, look at her.

She needs, she needs help, you know? Right. She had a more flexible schedule than me. And so look at, she’s got somebody picking up the child today, you know, yeah. And all those thoughts that were going through my, my mind, which only hurt me and my child or my children. Right. Mm-hmm . Because I look at that and I say, wow, you’re so resourceful.

You figured it out. You got someone else to pick her up when you couldn’t like, that’s amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, um, that’s, you know, one part of it, which is looking for resources outside of yourself, but what about self care? You know, they have this expression. I was on a plane coming, uh, coming back to seeing my middle daughter who had knee surgery.

And, you know, it just like triggered something where they do that safety protocol. And they tell you about put your mask on first, before you help your child or someone else. And I thought you gotta take care of yourself first, before you’re capable of taking care of someone else. And that means your child a hundred percent.

Maybe you could talk to us a little bit about that and what that looks like from a coaching perspective, especially right. Well for me, I mean, I think a lot of moms think that when we say self-care, we’re talking about getting a massage or going on a vacation, you know, those things are great, but they’re often expensive and the payoff is short lived.

Sure. So it, in my opinion, my opinion is that the best way you can take care of yourself and it’s totally free is to talk to yourself kindly like to treat yourself like you would a dear friend. Yes. The way moms talk to themselves is often so brutal. um, so just positive, like gentle self talk and self-compassion is the best kind of self-care and it’s, you know, this morning, every Monday I have a meeting with my team as a lawyer mm-hmm and I was talking to them about that this morning.

I was talking about treating yourself as you would treat your best. , you know, we say so many things to our, I, you know, I’ll give you an example because you know, weight has always been like somewhat of a struggle for me. So when I got on the scale this morning and I gained a pound, I was like, immediately going to that self hate talk, which was, oh my God, you stink, you can’t do this.

You’re FA you know, all those things. And then I had to literally stop myself and thank God for knowing how to coach myself. and say, what would I say to my best friend who gained a pound mm-hmm I certainly wouldn’t say you are capable of losing weight or you’re a loser, all these things. Right. Um, but it’s hard to remember to do that.

You know, it’s like that trigger, that thought comes so quickly. And in coaching, I think that one of the things that I’ve learned is you really have to take a time out and slow yourself down. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I was able to rethink it and it, it, it helped me to have something nice to talk to my team about this morning.

Cause I always try to bring something inspirational to them. Um, but I think that’s what you’re talking about is, is try to rethink. The way you speak to yourself, right? Yeah, because we think that like, if we’re hard on ourselves that that’s gonna motivate us to be better and it’s the opposite, we just feel horrible about ourselves.

And then we don’t show up in the best way. Right. So, yeah, just, I think that’s where it all starts with just loving ourselves. And I know a lot of people aren’t there yet, but at least liking yourself finding something to like, you know, um, and working your way to. Loving yourself, because when you can love yourself, then it’s much easier to extend that love to other people and especially our kids.

So one of the things that I love about your podcast and about your coaching is your name, the name. Oh, and yeah, I love it. So less drama, more mama. How did you come up with that? And like, what does it mean in your mind? So I came up with it actually in the car while it, I, I mean, it was actually before my divorce, but it was related to thinking about my ex-husband and we were just not in a good place.

And I just thought to myself, I don’t want all this drama in my life. Um, and. That’s when it hit me, like I was already, I knew that I was starting a coaching business and I, and, and I just had this thought, like, that’s it less drama, more mama. Um, and so I said it long before, um, Kelly Ann, uh, what’s her name?

Can’t think of her last name. Now I knew who was speaking about, and I don’t recall the name, uh, you know, Kelly Ann Conway, right? Yeah. And she said that. Yeah. So anyway, um, so for me it means just like. Having like a calm and peaceful life. And obviously the drama at the time, I thought the drama was coming from my ex-husband and everything that he was doing, but the drama was all in my head.

The drama were, was all the thoughts that I was having and like, you know, making myself crazy. So it’s helping moms learn how to like calm the drama in their minds and just be, you know, more at peace. So let’s any other tips? I mean, I know today is, you know, we, the podcast is only for a certain period of time, but any other tips that you wanna provide to the listeners that kind of stick out based on maybe the topics we talked about or self care and what that looks like.

Um, I guess just, um, you know, starting to, maybe to just pay attention to that voice in your head and what it’s telling you, right. That’s like a good place to start because I think oftentimes we’re not even aware of the way we’re talking to ourselves and once you start paying attention, you’re like, oh, I’m not, I’m not very nice to myself, a lot of the time.

So starting to pay attention to that and, you know, just question all of those thoughts that you’re thinking about yourself. Um, you know, what, if I’m wrong about that? What if, what if that’s not true that my kids are gonna, you know, end up miserable because of this divorce? What if that’s not true? What if they’re gonna be?

You know, what if my mom said to me, um, Not long ago, you know, she listens to my podcast and she said something to me like, I’m so sorry that we, you had this experience growing up. And I said, no, like that experience made me who I am today and enables me to be able to do what I do now and to help other moms and kids.

So I just feel like, you know, Questioning all the thoughts that we’re having that we think are just the facts. Right. And starting there. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I believe that too. I mean, I look at myself and, and my mom also did something similar, you know, she APO cause you know, she get older. I was having a heart to heart with her and I’m like, mom, why didn’t you ever Remar?

And she started to cry. Mm-hmm and, and she goes, I’m so sorry that I never gave that to you and your sister. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like you being a, you know, a badass mom working it out and struggling with two jobs. I mean, made me who I am today. It taught me about hard work and focus and, you know, taking care of yourself as a woman and being financially secure.

I mean, you gave me all that. You don’t even know it. So it was a beautiful conversation, you know, that we never discussed it verbally. And she had these thoughts that the divorce was so horrific for my sister and I. So how do people reach you? Tell me about your coaching program. Okay. Like how it looks, what it, what it involves and then absolutely how the listeners can reach you and work with you.

Yeah. So I work with moms for a minimum of four months, uh, and we talk over zoom. So I have clients all over the country. In Canada um, and we meet weekly for, you know, 45 minute sessions and I, I help them with their mindset. I help them, you know, look at anything that they’re struggling with. I mean, mostly people come to me for parenting things, but then of course we talk about all kinds of other things.

We talk about their relationships with their parents and, you know, and stuff going on at work and all the things. So, um, So we just, we work a lot on mindset and, uh, you know, with my background, as a school counselor, I sometimes will offer suggestions or, or things to help with, you know, their kids. But mostly the focus is on the moms themselves.

Right. So, because like I said before, that’s the only person you can control as you. Right. So we, we work on you and, um, Yeah. And then I also offer, so anyone who’s working with me at, at the time is also part of a group. So we have, which is optional, but a lot of the moms love coming to the group it’s once or twice a month, because then they can.

Here that, oh, I’m not alone. Other moms are going through these similar things. And even if it’s not exactly the same situation, there are so many similarities that we all share. And so that’s really, uh, a wonderful thing and people can have access to me via email, you know, in between sessions too. So I feel like with them, something like on a concept, they can, they can reach out in between.

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that because I, you know, I remember like when I was in therapy and I would have to wait an entire week before my next appointment, I wouldn’t remember what I had done a week ago. and you know, or, or there’s something happening in your life, in the middle of the week that you want support with.

So I love being able to do that back and forth, uh, during the week too. Well, that in and of itself is so valuable. I mean, to have the session weekly, To be able to have that communication with you when they need it, when it’s happening. Mm-hmm and I’m, you know, you respond within 24 hours or whatever it is always.

Yeah. You know, getting that response when it’s happening and then having the option to come in to a group setting where you can even just, I’m sure people can just sit there and listen. They don’t even have to partake if they don’t want to. Absolutely. I mean, I think some, sometimes you get more, uh, from just watching somebody else be coached right.

Than you do from getting coached yourself. Because when you’re getting coached, you’re like in it you’re, you can’t see objectively, right. That’s why we need a coach in the first place. But when you can see somebody else’s struggle, you can clearly see. They’re thinking and, and, and, you know, the limiting beliefs that they have, and then you can say, oh, I, I can relate to that.

Yes, I do that too. But sometimes it’s, it’s easier to see it in somebody else. And what a good resource, um, a community resource, I’m sure a lot of your clients become, you know, friends or they bounce things off each other because yeah. They all, yeah, it’s really nice. It’s nice to see that the relationships that.

Okay. So how do they reach you? Yeah, so I’m at less drama, more and, uh, my podcast is called less drama, more mama. Uh, I’m usually on Instagram, not like I’m not as on there as most people, but, um, over there I’m at less drama mama. Oh, okay. Yeah. So those are the places where you can find me. Perfect.

All right. Well, listen, I. So appreciate you. You are an amazing person. You’re such an inspiration. I am just in awe of what you’ve done and what you’re giving back to the world and to moms and parents that really need it. And I just wanna thank you. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you having me on the show and, and I’m excited for you to continue in your coaching business.

Well, thank you so much, Pam. We’ll listen every. Have a most amazing week. Remember? Yes, you can have an amazing life after divorce and go out and make beautiful things happen. And listen, take time for yourself today. And this week. And until next time, have an amazing rest of the day. And remember, yes, you can buy everybody.

Thanks so much for listening for tips, updates, and expert advice. Be sure to visit your amazing And remember my friends. Yes, you can have an amazing life after divorce. See you. Views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by YFA family law group or your divorce law center, their respective officers, directors, employees, agents, or representatives.

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