Ep. 190 – Winning the War, Not Every Battle

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;22;20
Doreen
Hey, everyone. So today we’re going to talk about winning the war. Not every battle and how this topic might be of interest to you if you’re going through a divorce. So if you’re ready, let’s get started with episode number 190. Hey, Jeff.

00;00;22;23 – 00;00;23;22
Jeff
Hello there. How are.

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Doreen
You? I’m doing great.

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Jeff
Excellent. Looking great over there.

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Doreen
Thank you. Trying to figure out what’s going on new in our life. Well, one thing that’s super cool.

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Jeff
What is it?

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Doreen
I started my private monthly women’s coaching group.

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Jeff
That was very cool.

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Doreen
Yeah. So I’m so happy. And you were there. And we’re going to do that every last Wednesday of each month. So there’s one next week, but it’s by invitation only. Generally for my clients it’s my get back and yeah, just helping people kind of with the coaching stuff. We don’t really talk a lot about law, but you know, sometimes we trickle in a little bit.

00;01;01;05 – 00;01;04;12
Doreen
Yeah. What’s going on with you guys?

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Jeff
Well, I’ve. Maybe they don’t know it out there, but I’ve recently got into pickleball.

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Doreen
And you are like.

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Jeff
I am hooked.

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Doreen
Yeah, people get hooked on it.

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Jeff
Well, it’s that again.

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Doreen
People get so hooked on it.

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Jeff
Yeah, well, I mean, it’s it’s like tennis. Yeah. With a smaller cord, so I guess.

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Doreen
Well, I know what.

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Jeff
It is and so much and and it’s just a lot of fun.

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Doreen
I think people get hooked on it because from what I hear, the social aspect of it, it’s very social. Yeah. Good for you.

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Jeff
Great people.

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Doreen
Maybe one of these years. I’ll join you.

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Jeff
Okay.

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Doreen
I have the outfit.

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Jeff
You have a lot about,

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Doreen
Who I look.

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Jeff
Great in on.

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Doreen
Who likes to shop. Just me. Just a little bit. But I only buy mostly on sale. Just saying.

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Jeff
Okay.

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Doreen
You know, I worked in retail when I was going through college, and I know about the markups, so you can find good stuff. So you just gotta gotta be smart anyhow. Anyhow, today’s subject was inspired because always because usually one of my clients. Right. So yeah, one of my clients was basically kind of wanted to understand why we weren’t doing more.

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Jeff
What do you mean doing more.

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Doreen
Meaning being more aggressive, being more vitriolic, being more litigators. And I said, but wait a second. The result is what? This was a case. I don’t I don’t want to say too much, but in involving children. And the bottom line was that, my client, he was able to have more time with the children because I didn’t push the button.

00;02;47;00 – 00;03;18;09
Doreen
I didn’t push what I say, poke the bear on the other side because when you’re litigating you have to be very strategic. You have to know when to litigate, when to push back. You have to understand about the personality traits. What are the trigger points? There’s a lot to not only understanding as a lawyer your case, the the issues of your case, but also the personalities, your judge and the overall, ability to negotiate.

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Doreen
What does that look like? It’s the art of negotiation.

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Jeff
Well, I think I think that that point that you just made is it is very important that our listeners understand that strategy. And divorce sometimes means.

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Doreen
Not eating yet.

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Jeff
And giving away what you might seem. I’m losing this, but the ultimate plan is to win the war.

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Doreen
Well, the the ultimate.

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Jeff
If you want to.

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Doreen
Call it. Yeah. I mean, but you kind of jumped a little bit respectfully. You kind of jumped. So we were talking about not pushing the buttons on the other side and when to strategize and litigate and be like, you know, forceful and all that. Sometimes it’s better not to. You’re talking about the bigger subject, which is equally as important, which is pick your battles, because at the end of the day, there are, as they say, no winners in divorce, right?

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Doreen
Right. You might there’s many issues in divorce. Everything from the division of assets and liabilities to support alimony and child support, to time sharing and shared parental responsibility issues to who gets what tchotchkes, is which furniture to, you know, wanting certain investments for maybe because you like the investment to selling homes, not selling homes. There’s a lot of moving parts, right?

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Doreen
And so you’re not going to win if there is a winner on any particular issue. All of the issues. Right.

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Jeff
Right, right.

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Doreen
That would be I mean, does it happen occasionally but rarely because somebody will just say, fine, take it all. I don’t care whatever. But generally people want to come out of the divorce feeling that they, you know, for example, got a good share of the finances. They feel comfortable with what they got, they understand what they got. They want to get the most support they can get if they’re dependent financially and you know, time sharing and all that really important issue.

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Jeff
So how many divorces you think or how many people go into the divorce with an adversarial attitude because that’s just expected?

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Doreen
Well, think about it. How many people are getting out of a divorce that are not adversarial?

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Jeff
Well.

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Doreen
Most people that are going through a divorce, unfortunately, do not have a, you know, how do I describe it? A happy relationship with their ex. They might have a working relationship with them. They can talk, they can be respectful. They can talk about the children and schedules and things like this. But they don’t trust their soon to be ex.

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Doreen
There’s a lot of distrust going, distrust going on. There’s probably something that happened or many things that happened during the breakdown of the marriage, which I believe happens for many, many years before the, the the incident or the one cause.

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Jeff
The straw that broke.

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Doreen
The straw. But you know, there you’re, there’s a lot of anger, there’s a lot of resentment, there’s a lot of, sadness. And you bring that unfortunately into the legal system. That’s a no no. That’s why I love what we do right here.

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Jeff
Bring it to the coach.

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Doreen
Bring it to the coach. And I love the fact that I really work hard as a lawyer to work with my clients and explain the emotional cost and the cost benefit analysis. And what’s the strategy if we give up this, what can we get this? Because at the end of the day, I think most people that are going through a divorce want one thing for sure.

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Doreen
They want many things, but they want it over fast, right? They want to get through the pain.

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Jeff
And move on.

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Doreen
And move on. Now, sometimes you can’t because you have to wait for discovery to come in and you’re got experts doing valuations and.

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Jeff
Children involved and.

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Doreen
Children that issues that you’re trying to figure out as to time sharing and all the things. But at the end of the day, it’s it’s not about winning every single one of the issues because it’s impossible. Right, right. So let’s talk more about that.

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Jeff
What I meant before what not trying to move ahead, but of just saying that giving up on things and conceding things can be looked at as a strategy.

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Doreen
Oh, of course, 100%. Now you have to know the other side. And you, you know, sometimes dealing with certain personalities. I’m just going to throw it out there. It’s used a lot. The narcissist personalities. You can’t just get you have to be careful how you give things away, how you concede to things. Because depending on who you have on the other side, especially someone who is used to getting their way and is in control of things and makes all the decisions, and now you got someone saying, and no, that’s not the way it’s going to work here, okay?

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Doreen
They don’t like that. So you don’t want to be weak either. You. It’s very much a strategy.

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Jeff
It almost seems like the strategy is also lawyer to lawyer. You know where.

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Doreen
To put.

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Jeff
Down the lawyer on the other side. If you both had the same strategy to to the same means to the end, then I think that it kind of helps the, spouses as well.

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Doreen
I don’t know what you mean. Could you?

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Jeff
Meaning? Okay, you’re very strategic lawyer when it comes, especially when it comes to your coaching and getting through the divorce.

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Doreen
Well, yeah. You litigate our our one of our, slogans. Our motto is ready to litigate focused on the on,

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Jeff
Resolution.

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Doreen
Resolution, ready to litigate, focused on resolution because you’re ready to litigate when you it’s worth it because the cost of what you’re going to get at the end the value in spite of the money spent to litigate it, in spite of the emotional deplete ment. And that is a cost. It is worth it at the end, because you have a solid case, because you know your numbers, because you know your judge, because you know the other side, because you know the parties.

00;09;30;10 – 00;09;43;05
Jeff
Well, that’s what I meant by knowing the other side. On the other side, the attorney on the other side, having the the similar attitude with the similar strategy, it kind of will make things go a little smoother. Yeah.

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Doreen
But you don’t know the other size and strategy necessarily.

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Jeff
Well, if you knew the if you knew the attorney.

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Doreen
I think what you’re asking is just to clarify is knowing which lawyers are litigators, which ones actually take the time to also settle their cases. Some are just known as complete litigators, right? They just go to court because I’ll be honest with you, litigating can be easier for the lawyer than dealing with getting your client to understand the cost and the strategies, and really sitting there and taking it’s much easier just to go before a judge present your case and let the judge decide.

00;10;19;11 – 00;10;22;20
Jeff
So your primitive brain versus your prefrontal cortex.

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Doreen
What do you mean?

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Jeff
If you have a prefrontal cortex and they’re they should be focused on resolution to help them get through the case a little quicker.

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Doreen
It’s not it’s not about quicker. Sometimes it’s faster to go to court because it depends on the case. But what I’m suggesting is that some lawyers are known just to litigate. They’re not good at negotiations. They don’t want to negotiate.

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Jeff
I thought of that because you said it was easier. I mean, usually when it’s easier, it’s your primitive brain talking.

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Doreen
No. You know what the bottom line is that every single case is different. Every case is different. So you have a mix of different party personalities, different issues, different, strategies. Legally, knowing who your judge is, you know, all the things who your experts are. But anyhow, back to when it, you know, win the battle, lose the war.

00;11;12;16 – 00;11;36;11
Doreen
What I was trying when I thought about this episode, it was inspired because of one of the clients who was winning the battle, meaning more time with his children, right? But he didn’t think that he was winning or were winning. He was winning the war, which I don’t like to use that. But he wanted more time with his children and that was the end result.

00;11;36;13 – 00;12;03;05
Doreen
And he he won that. He got more time, but he thought he was losing the battles because we were capitulating and giving in on certain things. And I said, but that’s what got you. The more time that was your win. So why do you want me to be a vitriolic, mean spirited lawyer when the way that I approached you got you, the more time, which is what you want, you want that?

00;12;03;07 – 00;12;21;21
Jeff
And it’s an emotional stakes that are incredibly high, you know, and people are it’s very it’s a common trap in divorce is that, you know, win win, win, win win. And if you don’t get something that you want, you know, let’s say that my spouse wants that so they can have it. It’s a trap that they get into.

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Doreen
I think I wrote it down here in my notes. It’s the he wants it. So what did I where was it. He won’t. He wants it. So I won’t let him have it. Right. Yeah. And that’s silly.

00;12;32;27 – 00;12;34;17
Jeff
Yeah. Because she probably doesn’t want it either.

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Doreen
But it’s interesting but it’s probably true. But it’s understandable because for many people it’s not about the end, what you’re getting. It’s about he wants it. So I don’t want him to have it and then I want it. I mean, I use the example of a couch. I had this case actually. It was a chair. It was this, I don’t know, antique chair.

00;12;57;05 – 00;13;16;09
Doreen
A million years ago. I tell this story all the time, and both the parties wanted it, and it was a very valuable antique chair. I don’t know anything about chairs, but it was like we are we settled all the issues in this multi-million dollar case back 25, 30 years ago when I first started, which was worth a lot more.

00;13;16;09 – 00;13;40;09
Doreen
Today we’re fighting over a chair, a chair, and yes, it’s a very special chair. It was a beautiful chair. I don’t know anything about chairs, but it was like, you know, it had authentic and it had certificates and all the things. I’m like, what’s its value? Oh, it’s worth $10,000. Well, that’s an expensive chair. And I said to my client, but it’s a chair you’re going to we’re going to go to trial over chair.

00;13;40;09 – 00;14;00;15
Doreen
And the judge looked at us and said, and there he goes. Do you got have you tried to settle? Yes, we have. We have one issue remaining, Your Honor, about a chair. And he said, I’m gonna take a break, a recess. Everybody go outside and figure out your chair issue. Because if I have to come in here and if I have to spend the next three days.

00;14;00;15 – 00;14;15;17
Doreen
We had three days spent, saved for trial on trial docket. If I got to spend the time and you’re telling me at one issue to resolve, I’m going to tell you right now. And he looked at the wife and he looked at the husband. We were somewhat elderly. Not that it makes a difference, but they had been married a long, long time.

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Doreen
Like 50 year marriage, right? And he goes neither one of you are going to be happy. And he pointed at her, says, not you, nor you. You will not be happy with my decision. So think if you want to fight about a chair. And we went out and of course we settled it, I don’t I can’t remember who got the chair because.

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Jeff
You cut the chair in.

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Doreen
Half. Cut the chair in half. Right. So let’s talk about it though, because.

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Jeff
Like you were saying, it’s almost like, you know, understanding self-respect and self dignity and like to go to before a judge and argue over a chair.

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Doreen
Isn’t that ridiculous?

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Jeff
People think.

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Doreen
Like.

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Jeff
I’m an idiot, you know, where’s my self kind of what? I mean, dignity is like gone.

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Doreen
Here, but done. Not to mention, you know, in many of these divorces, many of them there’s children and maybe they’re not even minor children. There are adult children and there’s families and they’ve spent all of these years together in family events and celebrations and births and marriages and all the things, graduations, that beautiful families do. And then divorce comes.

00;15;27;28 – 00;15;46;09
Doreen
There is a way of preserving the integrity of, of, of a relationship that was and can still be a form of a relationship in the future. Right? Meaning that when you’re at the next family event, you can actually look at each other, say hello, and and be really kind.

00;15;46;09 – 00;15;49;01
Jeff
And sit next to each other at a volleyball game.

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Doreen
Well, we did it, but not everybody does it. You can.

00;15;51;26 – 00;15;52;07
Jeff
Do that.

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Doreen
I get it. There’s a lot of pain and a lot of hurt. But aren’t you really doing it for yourself? When you and I argue? I mean, we’ll just throw it out there. Sometimes I say things that I later go back and I go, I just hate what I just said. Like, that was horrible. It wasn’t even about really the argument.

00;16;15;18 – 00;16;41;20
Doreen
It was about I get more upset about my my lack of, who are you showed up as? I don’t like that. And a lot of people are really good people, good people, good people that are going through a divorce, you know, so they say good people in a bad place, you know, in a bad situation. So I think compromise starts to open up and extend that olive branch when you’re.

00;16;41;20 – 00;17;08;27
Doreen
And no, let’s talk about knowing the things that are important to you. You should know all of the issues of your case. You should know from your lawyer the strategy, what your upside is, what your downside is. You should also know how much it’s going to cost you to go to court on that issue, and then understand which one of your issues right will use the the chair.

00;17;09;00 – 00;17;27;19
Doreen
If you really must have that chair, I’m going to ask my client why? Why? Because it’s an antique chair and it’s, you know, this valuable thing. Well, I’m sure that if we looked on the internet today, we could find many, many, many antique, beautiful chairs. So go buy.

00;17;27;19 – 00;17;28;21
Jeff
Another one, go find another.

00;17;28;24 – 00;17;33;13
Doreen
Like, you know what I’m saying? So that’s what this is about.

00;17;33;15 – 00;17;38;14
Jeff
Well, now comes from the art of war.

00;17;38;16 – 00;17;40;27
Doreen
What is that? Who who came up?

00;17;41;04 – 00;17;49;18
Jeff
Well, that’s where that that original saying came from is losing battles to eventually win the war was, Sun Tzu.

00;17;49;19 – 00;17;55;17
Doreen
No, it’s win the battle. Lose the war. It’s win the battle. Lose the war.

00;17;55;17 – 00;18;10;09
Jeff
Well, that’s what you’re going to do if you don’t listen to what he’s saying. But the premise is you want to not focus in on the little battles. So you ultimately win the war, right? And that’s what the Art of War was all about.

00;18;10;11 – 00;18;36;22
Doreen
Right. Isn’t that interesting? Very interesting. So, you know, this I guess, is it first? Sure. You know, divorce can be a battle. It is a battle. It’s you’re you’re you’re basically giving up half of your empire, right? Half of of your your what you’ve created, what you’ve put together half of the time with your children, half of your money, you know, all the things, your home, everything.

00;18;36;22 – 00;18;58;13
Doreen
I understand it, but we have to really think about we don’t have to do anything. But I would like to suggest that take a step back and really think about is it worth it? Is winning this really this one thing really worth it, or would it be worth it to give up something that they want that really you could do without?

00;18;58;15 – 00;19;18;12
Doreen
You’ll be okay. And then, you know, starting to go down that path of forgiveness and hopefully compromise. It takes one person to start it, you know, it takes one person. But they, you know, so many times are just, you know, butting heads the whole time.

00;19;18;14 – 00;19;22;26
Jeff
It reminds me of that one master class that we listened to about negotiation.

00;19;22;26 – 00;19;24;27
Doreen
He amazing. I don’t remember his name.

00;19;24;29 – 00;19;26;10
Jeff
It was Ross, I believe.

00;19;26;10 – 00;19;28;01
Doreen
I don’t remember.

00;19;28;04 – 00;19;38;09
Jeff
However, I noticed most of how he negotiated through, hostage situations was giving. Yeah he gave.

00;19;38;13 – 00;19;47;09
Doreen
They don’t go in. They don’t go in. You know, with guns, Blair and all the things and the yelling and the screaming, they go in and try to listen.

00;19;47;10 – 00;19;48;08
Jeff
Listen.

00;19;48;11 – 00;19;50;23
Doreen
What do you want? Why are you here?

00;19;50;24 – 00;19;51;24
Jeff
How can I give it to you?

00;19;51;27 – 00;19;56;26
Doreen
What can we do? You know, and then they start. It was really an interesting man.

00;19;56;26 – 00;20;12;26
Jeff
Maybe if we take, all the listeners out there, take the anything. Not just divorce, but any argument, any disagreement with of more understanding, perspective and learn how to focus on, giving a little bit more.

00;20;12;29 – 00;20;35;14
Doreen
Exactly. Because, you know, in the, in the end of the day, you know, look, money is important, right? Money buys you security. And a lot of people that go through divorce, they’re not going to have enough money to live comfortably. Even I get that. It’s a rebuilding time. It’s a transformation time. Some people do have a lot of money, and it’s much easier.

00;20;35;14 – 00;21;07;24
Doreen
Some people don’t, and it’s hard. It’s the cases that don’t that it becomes even more challenging many times. But there’s also that emotional cost of staying in the divorce of fighting, because at the end of the day, you’re still going to be a co-parent with this person. Your kids are going through this process with you as much as you try to isolate them and not you’re you’re showing up, not happy, you’re showing up stressed and they get it.

00;21;07;24 – 00;21;20;10
Doreen
They’re smart. So for their sake, for the sake of yourself, right. The sake of your own integrity, the save your healing to you know.

00;21;20;12 – 00;21;34;25
Jeff
Well, I remember one client that we had, it was so important to them that it was worth any amount of money. Not having to walk on eggshells around their spouse anymore. So the money wasn’t an issue at all. It was.

00;21;34;26 – 00;21;35;13
Doreen
She wanted.

00;21;35;13 – 00;21;43;16
Jeff
Out. So their self feeling how they were going to live their life. And she was so excited about that that the money wasn’t an issue, you know?

00;21;43;16 – 00;22;04;23
Doreen
And I guess that’s a beautiful thing. I remember that case. It was a very from what she explained, a very abusive relationship. Right? Not physically but emotionally. It was, really bad. And, that’s what she wanted. Her freedom. Yeah, she wanted her freedom. Anyhow. What else do we have? Any other points? I think we’re going to do an episode.

00;22;04;23 – 00;22;28;29
Doreen
I’m not sure when I want to do an episode on the art. When Strat strategy of negotiating and empowering your future. Basically, you know, the different personalities that come to the table and how you might, negotiate with them. You know, stronger personalities like strategic posturing and pressure, dealing with difficult personalities. I think I’m going to do something like that.

00;22;28;29 – 00;22;33;21
Jeff
And maybe, strategizing with your attorney more or two would be a good.

00;22;33;22 – 00;22;59;09
Doreen
Yeah, I got I got a call recently, and yeah, it was from somebody who was interested in interviewing me for a divorce. And he was mentioning that his attorney just didn’t take time to explain things to him. Right. Too busy, never sat down. Never, you know, hard to get phone calls. And he felt like he was bothering him every time.

00;22;59;11 – 00;23;12;18
Doreen
And you should never feel that way. You are paying for a service. You are paying for someone to represent you. You have a right to know. And I would demand it. You know, I would ask to get on a calendar and I suggest you do it.

00;23;12;18 – 00;23;14;14
Jeff
Really do the 101 on divorce.

00;23;14;16 – 00;23;31;11
Doreen
I do that, but I also check in with my clients often, depending on the case, of course, and the money and the issues and all that. Some cases you know, you don’t need to check in as often, you’re just really trying to get through and everybody’s kind of aligned, right. Other cases, especially with a lot of emotions you should be checking in.

00;23;31;14 – 00;23;32;23
Jeff
So right.

00;23;32;26 – 00;23;54;17
Doreen
All right everybody. So, listen, think about I suggest for the listeners to really write down what’s really important to you to get out of the divorce, write your reasons why, and then put it away and then bring it back out again and look at it again and try to think about what is your soon to be X.

00;23;54;19 – 00;24;19;17
Doreen
What do you think is important to him or her? And maybe that’s a place to start the compromise, right? And yeah. All right. So everyone have an amazing night. Evening, morning. Whenever you’re afternoon, whenever you’re listening to this. It’s evening right now. So we’re going to go make ourselves a little dinner here. And remember that you two kind of have an amazing life.

00;24;19;17 – 00;24;23;13
Doreen
And you will, after divorce, reach out to us whenever you want.

00;24;23;14 – 00;24;25;17
Jeff
See you next week. Bye bye.