Ep. 33 – Substance Abuse with Mark Astor, Esq.

What if I told you that your divorce could end up being one of the best things that could have happened to you? I’m Doreen, YFA marital and family, lawyer, and certified life coach. I’ve been consulting women for over 25 years. I’ve seen it all. Now. I’m sharing my expertise and my own personal experiences to help you turn a difficult time into.

Your amazing divorce.

So, hi, my friends. How are you doing? I’m so happy. You’re here with me today. Today. I’m gonna talk about something that I spoke about in episode 15, it’s called buffering. And I wanna get into a little bit of detail on it. I’m so fortunate today. I have a guest for you. His name is mark Astor. He’s the founder of drug and alcohol attorneys, a concierge law firm in Florida that specializes in helping families and individuals in crisis because of substance use and mental health disorders.

And getting to the place of getting to recovery and miraculous things that happen. Hi mark. How are you? It is so it’s so good to, to see you. And we’ve known each other for so many years. And what I like to think I’m a specialist in what I do. I know that you are. Not just a specialist in what you do, but very well regarded and highly respected in the community for doing unbelievable work with what you do.

So thank you for having me. It’s good to be here. I’m so, you know, it’s, it’s interesting cuz we have known each other how long? 29 years. 30 years. Uh, so we got into law school. What 90 was it? 91, 91. Yeah. So what we don’t wanna age ourselves though, cuz we’re still practicing lawyers. pillars in the community as they say, but yes, no, we, we certainly try to help people with what we do.

Me being a divorce attorney and you dealing with people that have issues with substance abuse and all that. So, you know, buffering, I wanted to talk to my main listener is gonna be generally someone who is either going through divorce or post divorce. Um, I have a lot of female listeners, but what I’ve noticed over the last number of months, and I’m not sure why this is the case, but maybe you can help us understand it is, it seems to be that there’s an increase in substance abuse and a lot of the family law cases that are coming for.

Assaults. So either they have an issue with, um, alcohol drugs basically, or their spouse does. And I don’t, are you seeing that things are on the rise right now? Is this COVID related? What’s going on? Yeah, I mean, we have seen a significant uptick in, in the calls that we’ve been getting from families from all over the country, cuz most of our clients are another parts of the country is sometimes international too.

So we’re definitely seeing an uptick we have done. I mean, I hate to say that COVID. COVID has been, I hate to say that COVID has been good for business, but it, but it, it has increased the number of calls that we’ve gotten. I mean, we were never busier when COVID came along and not only have we seen an increase in calls, but the severity of the cases in terms of the substance use the mental health, the mental health issues that we’re seeing.

I mean, it has really, it’s, it’s increased significant. So I think that what you are saying is not uncommon in, in this arena. So I’m not surprised to hear that it’s happening. So something you said that. I want our listeners to know. So even though you are based here in Florida and you’re a Florida lawyer, you deal with issues and families that have substance abuse problems throughout the country and the world.

Right. So, so what, yeah, so, so what’s happening is that people are either here. If they’re, if they’re here that gives us jurisdiction of don’t have to be a resident of Florida to be here and be within sort of the arm of the court, you know, jurisdictionally wise, but people are also sending their loved ones here for treatment, because, you know, after, after I’ll state attorney, Dave Berg cleaned up the industry, Florida, you know, has become really, probably the premier place to come for treatment treatment.

I mean, there are other parts of the country, but there is a, there’s a good selection of facilities here. Some of which can, can, uh, are license and specialize in helping, not just people with substance use, but with primary mental illness. And so it’s a great place to come and we have all see the legal structure here to, to deal with these cases, which really helps well, and in.

To all that we have a beautiful, beautiful beaches and weather and not to say anything, but it’s kind of a nice place to visit, right? yeah. I mean, that was the big shtick from, you know, way back when, before the taskforce they say, oh, come to Florida, settle the beach, you know, and go into recovery. That was sort of the marketing.

Oh. And so, yeah. I mean, look, the good thing is that you can be in a, in a, a welcoming environment and still get into recovery and obviously having great weather down here. I think helps. Right? I mean, you don’t wanna be in an environment where it’s snowing and, and all that other stuff. It doesn’t help things that that can be a stressor too.

So when you’re trying to, to, to go into recovery and maintain it, you wanna try and reduce anything that, that that’s a potential stressor for you. So I wanna talk about stressors. I wanna talk about, I teach a concept, um, It’s called buffering. And in episode 15, in my podcast, I talk specifically about buffering, but for the purposes of maybe a new listener or just for the purposes of our questions, you know, so buffering for me and the way I teach it as a life coach, cuz I wear the two hats, the family, lawyer, and the life coach, um, is when someone has a feeling they don’t like.

So it could be anger. It could be depression, it could be overwhelmed. And they buffer meaning that they tend to try to avoid that feeling instead of working through it and letting it pass through their body and get to the other side of it. And they buffer basically by finding a dopamine hit through some other artificial source.

So what could that be? It could be alcohol drugs. Overeating porn surfing the net. Netflixing, you know, like getting on Netflix and just staying on there for hours. Anything to avoid that feeling that you’re trying to get rid. And of course, drugs and alcohol being so readily available and being such a dopamine hit for people, you know, and my listeners, um, most of them are either involved in divorce right now, or they’re getting past their divorce or.

Rediscovering their new life and they’re dealing with a lot of stressors. So I wanna take someone as a hypothetical. We use that in law, right? Um, I want you to assume there’s a woman who just went through a divorce and during the divorce, she, um, enjoys her Chardonnay. And every night she’s feeling the stress of the divorce, the stress of single life.

And she’s taking a couple glasses of Chardonnay. That’s what I call buffering. She’s not, she’s not letting that, that anxiety, that feeling pass through or she’s buffering. And of course, when you drink wine, you feel good. You know, it, it brings a, a good feeling. When does it. Become a problem that my listeners should be concerned about.

Part one question and part two, how do they get help discreetly? Because remember they’re going through divorce or they’re in the middle of, well, they’re going past the divorce and they might have children together. So two prong is the first thing. How do you know you have a problem? And then how do you address it?

You know, normally what happens is that when people have a substance use issue, they’re the last ones that actually think they have a problem. In fact, what tends to happen is their loved ones. They they’re friends, uh, perhaps, you know, the new significant others saying, listen, I think you have a problem.

You know, we’re going out to eat every night and every night you’re coming home and you’re little you’re little wasted. Right. And they sort of look at they’re looking at those people. Well, you know, what’s the matter with you? This is, you know, this is my status quo. I’m perfectly okay. And so they don’t realize they have a problem, but then what tends to happen is, you know, there’s, there’s consequences to that.

They start to have health issues. Uh, perhaps they get arrested for DUI, perhaps their sign, significant analysis. Listen, I can’t deal with this anymore. I’m outta here. Perhaps their children may comments to them. Um, and, and all of a sudden, you know, there’s all these sort of red flags going up and. They’re like, you know, what’s going on here?

I mean, I feel okay. I’m just enjoying my life and they don’t realize, you know, look and you and I both went through divorces and it’s, it’s, there’s that sort of, you know, cycle, right? I mean, I know for me, I actually was happy to get divorced. And then afterwards I crashed emotionally just being devastated.

Uh, you know, what it felt like it was terrible. And thank God I had somebody that I went and spoke to and she said, look, There’s gonna be a cycle to this. You’re going to crash. There’s gonna be a period of time where you’re gonna mourn mourn the end of this thing. And then you’ll, you’ll, you’ll get back on your feet.

But I, but I knew that and I was expecting it and it happened, but I think for people who don’t know that and don’t expect it, they they’re starting to may, perhaps are starting to drink and they don’t realize what’s really happening to them until other people start to tell them all, they get a real kick in the pants cuz they get arrested.

And now they’re spending the night in the county jail and they’re like, okay, maybe there’s a problem here. You know, they’re starting to see these red flags. Right. So, so what you’re seeing is that most people are not recognizing they have an issue until either they, they have some horrible event. Happen like a crash or DUI, but more likely than not someone is bringing something to their attention.

Okay. And, and assuming that, that you’re in this cycle, you know, like you said, in divorce, you crash and burn, and everybody goes through the cycles at different stages. Right? You did, you did it afterwards, but some are in the middle of it right now. And they’re in the middle of the divorce. What can they do to.

To get help. I mean, how do they get help at first? I first, I assume you have to recognize it. And then what do you do to get help? So, I mean, look, there’s different degrees. I mean, you can start by seeing a therapist because perhaps there’s just something, you know, perhaps you’re just dealing with the, you know, the, the trauma of the divorce, right.

Whatever that might be. And maybe you just need someone to go and talk to so you can get a clinician. They’re just about everywhere here in, in south Florida, there is an AA meeting you can go to and they’re free. You can go they’re confidential if you’re really having a problem. Um, perhaps you need to check yourself into a residential facility.

Again, you know, those are all confidential. They’re all protected by medical privilege. And so you can do these things and they can be confidential and you don’t have to share them with. you know, and so, you know, there’s an opportunity there to sort of address things, but like any disease, because substance use mentaled illness are really diseases of the mind.

They do get worse with time. Like any other disease, it will get worse with time and, you know, if you don’t deal with it, um, you know, invariably you’ll end up either, you know, in the morgue or, you know, the state will take custody of you either through the mental health system or through the, the, uh, criminal justice.

And in the divorce case, your, uh, your, um, your ex might bring it to the court’s attention. Yep. We see a lot of that. We see a lot of that. And, and it’s an interesting dynamic because sometimes, you know, the ex spouses one is looking to put the other one into treatment and normally I’ll say, well, you know, you’re divorced.

So what, you know, what do you care? Right. I, I wanna know what’s going on. And they say, you know what, my ex spouse and I don’t like each other, we don’t get along, but we have, we have two children in common and she’s an excellent mother, or he’s an excellent father. And those children, I love them and they need their mother around because she makes a difference in their life.

Yeah. And so while the, the ex spouses may not care for each other, they come from a place of love because they have one thing in common, which is the love for their children. Absolutely. You know, I was dealing with a case recently, very sad. I represent the father and he sent me some pictures of mom laying on a coat on a couch.

And how do I say this nicely? I mean, there was vomit all over the place. She was drunk obviously. And this has been an ongoing issue. He’s been trying to get help for her for many years, but she is in denial. And so unfortunately he’s made a decision to end the marriage. Right. Um, but you know, for people that want to take action that know or recognize that they have an issue or that at least they should check to see if they have an issue from a professional CA you mentioned they can do it discreet.

In other words, I could go see somebody confidentially and that would be protected so that their spouse, at least in the, in the initial stages, can’t get the information. Right, right. Unless there’s a release of information as a general rule. Now, obviously there’s a divorce case pending and you could speak to this whether or not any of that information is discoverable because perhaps, you know, soon to be ex-husband is using that money.

To go out and get drunk every night with his new girlfriend. And, you know, he’s diluting the marital assets. I don’t know. I mean, you could speak that, but you could see where it, it could be complet be wiped with this privilege. Yeah. General rule is supposed to be confidential. Yeah. What the courts do in the family arena is they gen they generally have to do a balancing act between the privacy and the confidentiality of the health.

Records versus usually it has to do, do with the best interest of the child. So they’re balancing the need for privacy of the medical records and obviously the integrity of the treatment versus the best interest of the child. So it’s really done by a case by case basis, but I can tell you that. Based on my years of experience, that threshold has to be more than just an accusation.

For example, dad saying mom is in to no, it has to, unfortunately it has to be a higher level DUIs, you know, others that have seen this person, intoxicated pictures, like I just explained those types of things. You know, I think people should feel that they can go seek help without, you know, feeling that, that, that the world’s gonna know about it.

Right. yeah. And I think, I think, yeah, the path of least resistance is the way you want to go. And obviously if there’s a pending divorce, there’s always sort of the allegation. Well, you know, she’s just trying to leverage me in the divorce or he’s just trying to leverage me in the divorce. And I mean, and if that, when those cases come across my desk, you know, I’m really clear.

To the, to the, to the, to the client and to the other lawyer, look, I’m not getting involved in the divorce case. Here we come from a place of love. This is a shield. It’s not a sword. And if I think that you guys are using it to try and, you know, leverage somebody a divorce case, you’re gonna need to find another lawyer.

I mean, we’re trying to help this person here and I’m not gonna be used as a porn in the middle of the divorce case. Now, if the parties are getting divorced and that’s the decision. Then fine. We we’re all gonna respect that. But if the goal here is to get this person some help, then that has to be the goal.

And everybody has to come from that perspective. And so, you know, when there’s divorce going on, I’m, I’m really careful because we’re trying to help somebody. And if the parties decide they wanna be separated and divorced, well, that’s, that’s their business. And I don’t get involved in that, so right. What about if the, if one side is, let’s say they’re divorced and now they’re, they see that there’s certain things happening with, um, let’s just say dad, in this case, you know, like he’s, he’s coming, he’s bringing the child back late.

Hey, maybe the child is saying something like dad was driving, you know, strange. Um, maybe there’s a smell of alcohol or something on their breath. Um, how, how do you approach somebody that you care about? Even, like you said, You share a common denominator, which is a child, how do you approach somebody about, do you have a problem?

You know, is this something that we need to address as a, a family, even a divorced family, you know, you know, so that’s such a great question, Doreen, you know, and like you said, case is sort of on a case by case basis, but you know, some, sometimes families aren’t ready for, you know, to hire somebody like me.

And so sort of a happy medium is sometimes to use an interventionist. Right. Somebody who can, who can sort of be that objective person so that we don’t, you know, create an adversarial, you know, situation between ex spouses and, you know, look obviously if they, if the former spouses keep, you know, have a very great, you have a good relationship where they can, you know, talk honestly, and openly that’s a different, you know, different ball game.

But if we’re talking about situation where they, they get. Just to get along so that the children aren’t affected, then an intervention’s a great way to have a sit down with that person and say, look, you know, in a sort of loving family environment, say, look, there’s a problem here. And you need to listen to what everybody has to say, and then it becomes less confrontational.

And then there’s an opportunity to get that person to, to seek some form of treatment on a voluntary basis. And we don’t have to involve the courts. And so that’s, I mean, we use that a lot. It’s a great tool and we have a great, I mean, we haven’t have a great interventions on staff that that really helps, but I mean, there’s a ton of great interventionists that we work with too, who are outside of Florida.

And that can really be a game changer, but everybody has to be on board with that too. You. So, so someone can hire you. Let’s say I have a, uh, you know, a client who believes that her husband, um, her ex-husband has a substance abuse issue and they have children together. Do you work like with my client or a client to try to help them?

How to figure out the, how as to the intervention, like steps they would take or people they might talk to on how to approach somebody that potentially has an issue. Yeah. So, so look, so, so typically what happens is I, you know, we call it triage in the case. We’re like doctors, right? We’re not we’re lawyers.

And so I think, I think a big part of this story is to find out like, what’s the real goal here. Like, what do you, what’s the ultimate goal? Like and how, how far are you willing to go with this? I mean, if, if, if the former spouses have a great relationship and the, the, you know, say ex-husband is willing to, it feels like he can have a conversation with ex-wife then.

Great. But then the issue is okay, well, so if the, if the relationship is not good and, and you really need to make sure this person is sober for the sake of the children, let’s talk about what a court proceeding is gonna look like, because there are times when, you know, we’ll send out the police to go get somebody and take him to a detox for five to seven days.

And, you know, that’s can be an uncomfortable, you know, proposition. I mean, it’s a, it’s a serious, it’s a serious commitment to do this stuff. Not just time and energy and, and money. So now we’re involving the court. So are you willing to go back into court? Are you willing to testify against the person and, and, uh, potentially put your children on the stand?

I mean, all these things have to be considered. And so right. Some people are just not willing to do that and I could totally get it. They’re like, listen, we went through a messy divorce. We spent all this money on lawyers. We’re done. Mm-hmm and you know, I, I think I can have a conversation with my ex spouse, but if he, or she’s not willing to get treatment, then you know what, maybe we need to sort of go back into the family call and talk about how much time he or she’s spending with the children, because maybe the family court can address that issue, you know?

Right. You know, suddenly you and I spoke about. Particular case. And, and I, I learned a little bit, but maybe you can explain to the listeners about a baker act versus is it a Marchman act? Yes. Yes. So, all right, this is, this is another great question. Do you’re asking me all the, all the good questions. I love it.

You and I at all for hours, we don’t. You’re doing great. So, so there are, there, there are three ways. To basically involuntarily, involuntarily commit somebody here in Florida, baker act, Marchman act and guardianship. So I I’ll leave guardianship aside for a second. So the baker act is a, is a statute, um, that allows for typically allows for the state of Florida to take custody of somebody.

Who is suffering from a mental illness and as a result, they present as a danger to themselves or others, and the state can take custody, the custody of them for a period of up to 72 hours before they have to, before they have to go to court and, you know, and have a hearing, they give the person due process.

It it’s typically done where the state takes custody either through law enforcement or perhaps a medical doctor. Not to confuse you, but it can be done with a person that, whether the, say one spouse goes to the court and files a petition, but it’s generally not done that way. The Marchman act is a statute.

That is, is a, is, is a, a statute again, involuntary commitment. It’s for primary substance use. And it allows for a court to order somebody into treatment for a period of up to 90 days. Now that can also be initiated by the state, but it typically isn’t, it’s normally a private action. So, you know, Doreen says, you know, realizes her friend mark has been drinking way too much.

And this has been for way too long. And Doreen goes into court and she files, there’s actually two parts to this, but long story show, she files an initial petition. And because I’ve, you know, I’ve uh, you know, I may have overdosed or I’m, I’m driving drunk, the court grants, an emergency order and law enforcement come and they pick me up and they keep me somewhere so I can detox for a week.

And then we have a hearing and Doring tells the judge, you know, your honor, I’ve known, I’ve known Mr. Asher a long time. We went to law school together 30 years ago, and I’ve never seen him like this. He’s, you know, every night. You know, whenever I see him socially, he’s always drunk and my friends, you know, whatever the evidence is.

Right. And then the thought, okay, I’m making a finding, you know, I’m sending into treatment for the next 90 days. And so mm-hmm, , you know, the, the, the bay act is very sort of short and narrow or, or it typically is. Whereas the March practice is a lot longer, so they’re both orders for treatment. Um, they just initiated for just sort of different ways and for, uh, different reasons.

But I will tell you the baker act specifically excludes somebody who has. Substance use or disorder. So it’s not meant to be used for someone who’s intoxicated. Not that it isn’t, but it shouldn’t be it’s specifically for mental illness. Right. Did not do that. So baker act should be used for a mental illness versus a substance abuse issue.

Correct. Now that doesn’t mean to say that if your loved one is, you know, drunk and throwing things around that, and the police get called that they won’t get baker acted, they could well get baker acted because the police say, well, is the lesser two evils either, either we baker act them or we leave them and something terrible happens.

So can that, can they get baker acted they can do, but do they, I mean, from a legal perspective, they meet criteria, probably not, but. Don’t we want the police probably taking that person as opposed to, you know, something domestic happens or worse, and now they’re getting arrested. So that’s sort of the sure.

You know, it’s like in law school, right. There’s sort of black letter law and how it really works, how it works in the real world. that they don’t teach you in law school. Right. That’s what they don’t teach you. That’s what we play. They. Um, that’s what they come and they talk to us about. So if they have a family law issue, they’re gonna talk to me.

And if they have a substance abuse issue themselves, or with someone else or a family member, they come talk to you. Right. And we tell ’em that the skinny of it, as I said, that’s why they call it the practice of law. And that’s why a lawyer like you like us. Who’s been practicing what, 28 years now. As a general rule knows more that somebody that got outta law school two years ago, that’s not because they’re a bad lawyers.

They just don’t have the experience. And there’s no substitute for that. No, there isn’t there isn’t. So I have another question. So I’ve noticed through different ads and different people that I’m speaking to. And I don’t know, I don’t know if this is COVID driven, but there seemed to. Be more access to treatment online, meaning like you and I are doing this by a zoom call right now.

Right. Do, is there more treatment going on where people can be in the privacy of their home and, and what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, so, you know, a bit like the legal profession, which got sort of, you know, dragged into the 21st century kicking and screaming, the, the, the clinical , the clinical ring also had to, and really just like us, it really had to, otherwise it was gonna get shut down.

People that were in, in treatment. There, there are clinicians all went on zoom. A lot of the treatment centers, um, you know, went on zoom if it was sort of outpatient services. So, I mean, I think that’s been a good thing, but you know, there, there is no substitute for human contact and I do think. That, you know, even if you’re just sitting one on one with a clinician, there is something to be said for that, you know, sitting across, you know, from each other and actually having that human contact with us, you know, you can feel each other’s energy.

It’s not the same as on zoom. I mean, it’s, it’s like, you know, when we’re, we’re doing a hearing, I mean, it’s great. It’s convenient. I can sit there on my pajamas and a shirt and tie. That’s not quite the same. it just loses something. It does. It does. And, and, you know, I think we’re, we’re gently trying to get back into that human contact, you know, because it is so valuable to relationships and to helping people, you know, and both of our folks, we can’t live in the Meow world as, as it say, you know, I mean, I think it’s important, especially for somebody who’s dealing with trauma, right.

Whatever that happens to be just from the divorce, physical trauma, sexual trauma, I mean, Zoom is great, but you know, if you’re having a real problem, you need that interaction. And, and if you’re going into some type of residential setting with an opportunity for a sort of, you know, group, group therapy.

Yeah. I mean, there’s nothing that beats sitting in a room with people and, and realizing that you are, you are not suffering alone, right. There are other people who are also on this journey and you get a chance to see them heal, and that helps you. And so you can’t do that on zoom, right? You simply can’t.

No, you, you can’t. So what do you, any advice that you have for our listeners who, I mean, we talked a lot today about things, but who let’s say themselves is dealing with an issue? Uh, or they, they, I think we all kind of know, like when, when we’re on this pattern of self destruction, we might be. Avoiding it and avoid recognizing it.

And we don’t wanna admit it, but I think that if we dig deep and in the thought work that I try to teach my listeners is, you know, you have to really understand your thoughts and why you’re doing certain things. And if your results in your life. And the results I’m assuming from substance abuse is the accidents, the child saying something, the spouse mentioning it, the family members, unfortunately, maybe even something worse than that, somebody really getting hurt or even killed.

Um, what is your advice to them? Like how do they get started? Yeah. You know, I think, I think, you know, this sort of stigma that was once attached to people who have a substance use issue or mental health issues, I think that has really largely, you know, gone by the wayside. I mean, we really, especially here in south Florida, I mean the judges, our judges.

They’re so switched onto this stuff. It’s really, I mean, we’re very blessed down here, at least with our judiciary. They’re so switched onto this stuff. So the stigma has really gone away. There are a ton of resources out there. I mean, if somebody doesn’t want, I mean, I give a ton of resources away just on my website and somebody can always call me.

And ask for a referral. I don’t, you know, unless they hire me do the legal work, I’m happy to give stuff away for free. Whether it’s the name of a clinician or interventionist or a treatment center, you know, I’ve got all the context. I’m happy to give it away, but maybe they just go on Google and say, okay, where’s where where’s the nearest AA meeting.

And I, and I just know from people that, you know, that are, that are experiencing long term recovery, They walk in the recovery every single day. And they all say, I go to at least one meeting a week and I am sure if they went to a meeting, they would be welcomed with open arms. And so there’s, there’s a lot out there, you know, there’s no, there’s no shame in this.

In fact, I think that people who are, who understand that they have a problem and are willing to get help. I mean, those people are, you know, to a certain extent they’re sort of looked up, right. They’re looked up to, wow, you have a problem and you, you admitted it and you went and dealt with it. That takes serious courage.

It really does. It’s not an easy thing to. And so I know, I know that I get all your emails and you do give a lot of free content out there and I enjoy your videos. I always find them very interesting and I learn something. So if somebody wants to reach out to you, whether to get a resource or to talk to you about themselves and what’s options, they might have a avail.

You might. Suggest for them or they have a family member. How do they reach you? What’s the best way. How do they get on your website and all that kind of good stuff? Okay. So there’s a couple ways. The website is drug and alcohol attorneys with an assets, alcohol attorneys, plural. They can email me. So it’s mark with a K drug and alcohol attorneys.com.

They can call me five six one four one nine six zero nine. Listen, mark. I really appreciate this. You know, I, we came to this episode today, cuz I was speaking to you about a client. I won’t break any privilege, but as we were talking about, um, my client and her spouse, who’s having issues, which I’ll circle back with you on eventually.

But um, I, I really thought that this would be something that people wanna hear, you know, people, especially that are going through divorce. And so I really appreciate your time and all of the information. You’re always such a pleasure to speak with, and I love your accent. I’ll never get sick of it still, still, ever.

All these years still, still true. All right, my dear, listen, you have an amazing day. I hope the listeners too, everybody out there, you have an amazing week. If you have a problem, address it, buffering is not. Not gonna last forever. You need to work through that emotion. You need to address the issue and you need to get help and there’s help available.

Just give mark a call. All right, guys, listen, have an amazing week mark and everybody out there. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. I’ll speak to you soon. And until next time, have an amazing rest of the. And remember. Yes, you can. Bye everybody. Thanks so much for listening for tips, updates, and expert advice. Be sure to visit your amazing divorce.com.

And remember my friends. Yes, you can have an amazing life after divorce. See you. Views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by YFA family law group or your divorce law center, their respective officers, directors, employees, agents, or representatives.

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