Ep. 185 – Insanity and Divorce

00;00;00;00 – 00;00;29;24
Doreen
Hi everyone! Today on our podcast we’re going to talk about insanity in divorce, what it means and how to identify it and move past it so that you can move on to your best next new chapter. So if you’re ready, let’s get started with episode number 185. Hey, Jeff. How are you? I’m good. So there, we’re going to talk about insanity.

00;00;29;26 – 00;01;01;02
Jeff
Whoa! Yours or mine? I think the insanity that you experience or people experience going through divorce, but really we’re going to talk about, doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. That’s the that’s the expression or the, the quote. And, you know, it’s interesting, when I was researching this, and the use of the, the term and what it means.

00;01;01;05 – 00;01;23;15
Doreen
I had originally thought it was from, someone else, but it turns out that it was made popular by Rita Mae Brown. Do you know who she is? She is an activist. I looked her up. She’s an activist and author. Yes. Feminist? Yes. Yes. And she was the one that created the metaphor about repeating harmful actions and hoping for change.

00;01;23;17 – 00;02;00;13
Doreen
And so, to clarify, this is not an episode about mental illness or clinical insanity. So in a more more came up when she was doing, addictive work and studying, patterns and repetitive patterns of behavior. I think that’s why it’s used most popular and most recognized in AA and, those types of organizations. Right? Right. So the idea of repeating harmful behavior while hoping for change applies clearly to several common life situations.

00;02;00;13 – 00;02;24;17
Doreen
One of them, of course, is addiction. But particularly it can be troubling when it occurs in relationships and even through divorce and post divorce. Well, I like the way when you you know, we we talked about this episode. We talked about, definitions of insanity before, during and after divorce. Right. And that’s how I structured the episode today.

00;02;24;20 – 00;02;45;15
Doreen
So the first thing I want to talk about this, talk about struggling marriage, you know, imagine a couple that’s been married, let’s just say, for 15 years, right? Sounds like us. Right? 16. Okay. But I mean, I literally came up with 15, but I was like, excuse me. You okay? Yes. I’m okay. I wasn’t wasn’t thinking about, us, but.

00;02;45;17 – 00;03;17;06
Doreen
So let’s go back. Imagine a couple that has been married for 15 years, but in recent years they’ve fallen into a pattern where they constantly criticize each other. One spouse may call the other irresponsible, while let’s say the other responds with silence or sarcasm. Neither makes an effort to communicate openly or seek counseling. Instead, they just keep repeating the same arguments and unhealthy interactions, believing things will improve on their own over time.

00;03;17;08 – 00;03;43;25
Doreen
What happens generally with these types of struggles in relationships? And we’re talking about marriage here, but this can be any relationship. It can be a love relationship, a relationship with a friend, a relationship with, your family. Right. And employed. True. But over time, the emotional distance grows between the two people and both feel unhappy, but feel stuck in the cycle, right?

00;03;44;01 – 00;04;14;00
Doreen
Yeah. So. Well, for an example each evening, man with harsh. The harsh exchange that they’re used to, followed by the silence that lasts for days and efforts to discuss the problem, turning to blame games, increasing resentment rather than resolutions. Yeah. So just to give it some content and, you know, I think that most marriages that I encounter from the legal standpoint as a divorce lawyer, they have been going through this.

00;04;14;02 – 00;04;39;20
Doreen
I’m sure a lot of our listeners can relate to this. Well, they’ve been struggling in their marriage. There’s a pattern of behaviors that isn’t working. It’s it’s, you know, blaming and anger and silence treatment and the way they talk to each other and all the things, and they don’t want to discuss it. You might have one partner that completely is I don’t want to talk about it right.

00;04;39;23 – 00;05;05;06
Jeff
I’m smiling at you. When I said that. Okay. You don’t like to talk about things, but that’s next subject. Next subject. Or you might have another person who yells and screams and and all the things, right? And it just becomes part of the relationship. Well, it becomes part of how the relationship just folds. You know, how it how it is.

00;05;05;09 – 00;05;37;16
Doreen
And so I think that the challenge here, as opposed to insanity that you control, right, like something you’re doing yourself, like let’s say addiction, right? You’re consuming whatever it is, your drug of choice. You alone have the power to say no more and to seek help, right. And understand that you’re on an insanity cycle. But in relationships, it takes two, it takes two, it takes two.

00;05;37;19 – 00;06;09;26
Doreen
So without both partners willingness to actively change, there’s a little bit of a caveat there. Because change, people don’t generally change. That’s a whole other podcast that we’ve done, but therapy, counseling, retreats, couple retreats, things like that, trying to figure out, you know, how deep rooted is this insanity cycle that we’re on? Is it something that we can we can gravitate towards, a solution on?

00;06;09;26 – 00;06;38;22
Doreen
Right? Is it something that is worth trying, to, to fix. And that’s where you can break the insanity. Because if one but if one spouse refuses to engage in improving the efforts. Right. The only path might be to choose a divorce, right? Because you have a choice, right? You can if two people don’t want to come to the table and say this is insanity, let’s figure it out and willingly try.

00;06;38;22 – 00;07;11;25
Doreen
And you only have one person that’s willing to try. It ain’t working, you know. Will stopping the insanity may be ending the divorce. Maybe the only option to stop the is not ending the divorce, but starting. Starting this. Yeah, yeah. I mean yeah. So, you know, for those of you out there that are struggling in your marriage, in your relationship and you’re in this cycle of insanity, I think the first thing to consider is how much have you and your person talked about this?

00;07;11;25 – 00;07;38;06
Doreen
Right? Have you opened the door to the communication and is there an ask at least by one person to seek help, right, whatever that looks like, or at least start to figure out what that might look like? It doesn’t even have to be. We’re going to go to therapy. It might just be let’s research the options, right? Just accepting that there is a breakdown and a struggle and insanity cycle.

00;07;38;08 – 00;08;04;20
Doreen
So but for those that are in the ones the relationships that one person is like, I’m not doing that. I’m fine. It’s all you. Yeah. You know, I have those people that come and visit me and for divorce counseling and you know, there’s sometimes is I tell them, listen, I’m also a life coach, and you can maybe learn to accept certain behaviors, certain ways, and find peace in that.

00;08;04;22 – 00;08;32;21
Jefff
And we talk about that a lot in our coaching. Right? Yes. But if you can’t then the only real choice is to seek divorce. I had a case recently. Of course, I never divulge names or anything like this, but the husband was involved in some behaviors that the wife didn’t accept. The surrounding I’m not going to say, okay, I think it’s better just behaviors.

00;08;32;21 – 00;09;04;24
Doreen
Just behaviors. And we talked about, you know, could she accept that behavior on some level because it wasn’t like it was horrible behavior. It was morally an issue. It wasn’t like substance abuse where you are, you know, breaking down your your, your, your body. It’s probably triggering all kinds of other issues in your family. This was a personal thing that he was doing that was more of a moral issue, to some.

00;09;04;28 – 00;09;31;03
Jeff
Right. And her answer was no. And I’m like, well, then there’s one choice, right? Right. Which is to to consider divorce because he will not admit there’s an issue. He will not seek help. He will not identify that this is a cycle and a struggle in their marriage. So then the choice is divorce, which brings a lot of bitter bitterness, as you can imagine, right?

00;09;31;06 – 00;10;02;14
Doreen
Yeah. Yeah. Well why? Why? Well, because you went into the divorce not seeking. I mean, you went into the marriage as a partner for better, for worse, for better or for worse. And, you know, you have these ideals of what the future looks like. And then all of a sudden, we’re not, we’re not getting the same commitment from the other side that you feel you’re giving.

00;10;02;14 – 00;10;20;19
Doreen
Right? And you’re you want to make the marriage work. You want change, but the other side doesn’t. You feel kind of a little bit of a betrayal, not a little bit. You feel a lot of betrayal. Well, yeah. Yeah, not a little bit. So that’s one. And probably for a long period of time it’s been going on. Right.

00;10;20;19 – 00;10;44;12
Doreen
Well it has I mean most of these insanity cycles have been going on for a time. And they’re just right. This is why they’re repetitive. They’re destructive. Right. Yes. Okay. The second one is what fighting during your divorce. Right. So I know what what. And I know you have plenty of experience and plenty of examples to to share with that.

00;10;44;15 – 00;11;15;24
Doreen
Yeah. So let me start with let’s do like a hypothetical. Let’s I say consider a couple going through divorce where instead of cooperating, each tries to hurt the other. They refuse to share financial information, drag out custody battles, and file repeated motions in court. Right. Does that sound familiar to any of our listeners? Because this is a constant battle, that I deal with really trying to move people from the emotions of divorce into the business of divorce.

00;11;15;24 – 00;11;49;11
Doreen
But all of that type of behavior, this prolongs a legal process. It adds months or years of delay and delay cost money. Consequently. Consequently, time is wasted that can never be recovered. And of course, as I said, the legal fees just pile up, sometimes totaling tens of many thousands or more. Not to mention the emotional damage that is sometimes not unforgiving or unforgettable.

00;11;49;11 – 00;12;13;21
Doreen
But it could give lasting damage. So what happens is, let me clarify. Remember the definition of insanity was doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So how does that play off in the divorce process itself? Okay, it’s not years like before the divorce where you had a failed marriage and repetitive behaviors. This is going on.

00;12;13;24 – 00;12;39;22
Doreen
There’s a lot of emotions going on. Negative emotions during divorce. Right? Right. And so this repetitive cycle, the insanity cycle here is when you’re out to get the other side and you’ll do anything to to do that. Right. Right. You have that mentality that they’re not getting it. That’s not fair. And it’s just a continuous pattern of insanity.

00;12;39;28 – 00;13;05;28
Doreen
Now eventually the insanity cycle in divorce process ends. And we’ll talk about that in a minute, because there’s going to be a trial judge is going to put an end to it, or there’s going to be a settlement eventually, eventually, after thousands, many, many, many, many, many thousands have been spent and all the time is wasted and everybody is affected from you, your spouse, your children and everybody else.

00;13;06;00 – 00;13;32;23
Doreen
So let’s take another, for instance, you want to talk about a phase and you know, let’s say a couple may spend two years in court instead of resolving the matters in months because of the ongoing hostility. You know, in each party blames either the legal system or they blame each other. But the true cause is really the refusal to compromise or shift to reasonable negotiations.

00;13;32;26 – 00;14;03;10
Doreen
That’s true. And like I said, eventually most divorcing couples settle their legal issues. But only after one or both decide to stop the harmful insanity cycle of the tit for tat behaviors. In fact, the stats are alarming. I mean, the stats of of settlement versus trials in divorce, at least my more most recent is like 90 plus percent.

00;14;03;13 – 00;14;25;08
Jeff
That’s high. How many of your clients? So why are they not getting there beforehand? And I just want to shake them because it’s like, stop the insanity. Now I do my best to control my client’s behaviors and try to reasonably talk to them depending on where they are in the process, being very sensitive and gentle to that, but sometimes being tough minded, right?

00;14;25;10 – 00;15;00;02
Doreen
But this realization often comes with external guidance, generally from the lawyers. I think now lawyers can also do it, but keep people in sanity cycles. Why? Why? Well, mostly they’re making a lot of money. It’s not horrible. Yeah, I just I just am disgusted by that. And we hear we hear it quite often, you know, when I’m with you in certain circles, you know how if I knew now what I knew then, or I had a lawyer that did that to me, and I spent, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars took way too long to get it done.

00;15;00;02 – 00;15;23;18
Doreen
Yeah, but you know what? I just had a situation recently where the other side of a case was saying that I overcharged and I caused more difficulties. And the reality is not that I overcharge. I do not overcharge. I charge to get the job done. And sometimes it takes people a long time to get out of the insanity cycle.

00;15;23;21 – 00;15;47;07
Doreen
But sometimes also you, you have to fight for what is right and make sense from cost benefit analysis for your client. And so yes, sometimes things do cost money, but at the end of the day, you should be getting more than you’re spending. That’s the goal, right? Well, coming from the other side, I’m sure that was taken into consideration.

00;15;47;09 – 00;16;12;27
Doreen
I you know, it it it it happens. Right. This is not an easy practice of law. Meaning you’re going to have enemies, right? You know, if you’re doing a good job. But what I try to do is really try to move people and shift them both. You know, I can’t talk to the other side, but like, for example, I was just in a mediation with a challenging case last week and we made a lot of progress.

00;16;12;29 – 00;16;35;22
Doreen
We didn’t finish the whole case. And that’s okay too. Don’t don’t expect side note here that if you go to a mediation, you have to completely, globally settle the entire case. Sometimes just making positive headway, making compromise on a few issues is getting you out of insanity and into that cycle of resolution. So please don’t think it’s a failure.

00;16;35;22 – 00;17;03;03
Jeff
It’s a step in the right direction to break the cycle. Right. And it’s it’s amazing to me. But eventually, like I was saying, with the guidance of mediation and courts and the lawyers, you know, hopefully because the law is not overly complicated, you can settle your case. But when lawyers permit their clients to be emotional and bring up nonsense issues, that only fuels the fire happens quite often.

00;17;03;05 – 00;17;26;14
Doreen
I just I’m laughing because I had a case recently, and this case is many, many millions of dollars. And literally they’re fighting about an instrument now fighting someone. One of the sides was focused on an instrument and I’m like, really? You want me to focus my energy on an instrument that is not worth that much and not the many millions that is that issue.

00;17;26;14 – 00;17;59;11
Doreen
I can’t do that. Right. But you end up sometimes compromising on something like an instrument in order to get some, semblance of breaking the cycle. Does that make sense? I give a little. Give a little, and maybe you can break the cycle. Let’s talk about number three, holding on to negative thoughts after the divorce. You know, after the divorce ends, one’s spouse may continue to feel trapped by those negative emotions.

00;17;59;14 – 00;18;27;25
Doreen
They replay painful memories. They blame their ex for everything wrong or they declare that they’ll never find happiness again. You know? And these repeated thoughts keep them stuck emotionally, making it hard to move on or build a new life. For an example, a person might think, daily I wasted years on someone who I who never cared about me or I will never trust another person again.

00;18;27;27 – 00;19;01;06
Doreen
Or like I’ll never find someone or who wants anybody that has children. These thoughts create feelings like anger, sadness, hopelessness. You can just add on to those right. Acting on these feelings, though, might mean avoiding social activities, refusing today, harboring resentment, all of this affecting potential new relationships. Or I’m not just talking romantic relationships. It could be relationships with your friends, your family, your children, children.

00;19;01;08 – 00;19;45;14
Doreen
Yeah. So this mental pattern after divorce is another form, I suggest, of the cycle of the ex of insanity. Expecting peace. Right. You want peace after you get divorced. You want happiness. You want success. You want to wake up and feel good. But if you’re harboring those negative feelings, you’re repeating that insanity cycle. Unless you can deal with the underlying feelings and start shifting them to more positive feelings so that you can start to now break the insanity, right?

00;19;45;14 – 00;20;18;14
Doreen
Only by becoming aware of these thought patterns and gently shifting towards acceptance. Right, and positive reframing. Can you help yourself now? That’s tough. Okay. For some people that requires really some work. Yeah. Breaking the cycle. Yeah. Well yes breaking the cycle. But after a divorce. Right. You know, you’ve just been through a bad marriage. Divorce. You probably lost time with your kids.

00;20;18;21 – 00;20;39;22
Doreen
You lost dollars. You were involved in probably not a great system, court system meaning delays. And they’re do they do the best they can. But it is what it is. And now you’re trying to heal and you’re harboring all this resentment. That is just a cycle in of itself. Now, some people can push out of that cycle sooner than others.

00;20;39;24 – 00;21;00;07
Doreen
Right? Right. And I think that recognizing you’re in the cycle is the first thing we’re going to talk about how to break the cycle. But I want to finish this thought like just knowing you know what, I can’t shake these negative thoughts I’m having about about everything relating to the divorce. It’s really causing me a lot of pain and suffering.

00;21;00;10 – 00;21;22;11
Doreen
And I need help, I need help, and some people can break that cycle themselves and other people. They need a coach like us who can help them to figure out their thoughts that are creating their feelings, actions, results, and change it. Therapy, support groups, sometimes just, you know, spending some time in deep thought in your with yourself.

00;21;22;11 – 00;21;46;03
Doreen
Right. And who you are so turning now let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about how do we break the cycle. The insanity cycles. So the first thing is, like I just said, breaking these cycles requires awareness. It requires awareness. That’s that’s great. So if you recognize that you’re in one of these cycles, yay for you. Give yourself a high five.

00;21;46;04 – 00;22;07;12
Jeff
No, it seems like a not only a very important step, but it’s probably one of the most difficult steps. You know what, though? Just awareness on all the things that we teach in coaching. That’s huge. Having awareness of this, this is a thing, right? This is the thing. Like being okay, I’m aware I’ve got an issue here. Then commitment.

00;22;07;15 – 00;22;32;27
Doreen
Commitment to change. Right. Your cycle commitment. If you’re still in your marriage to try to bring the other person in and see if you can resolve it together because it takes two, and then a commitment to make a change if you have to. So oftentimes this requires, like we said, outside help. So different strategies apply depending on your specific situation right.

00;22;33;00 – 00;22;56;25
Doreen
Yeah. You know like in a troubled marriage both spouses must be willing to break the cycle by actively focusing on the counseling, the communication and the steps to heal. Can I stop you there? Yeah. You may. You know, I, yeah, because sometimes you might have a partner that goes into therapy but really isn’t buying into it. Right?

00;22;57;01 – 00;23;19;22
Doreen
Okay. But don’t criticize that first. Like try to work through that. Therapist will pick up on that. Generally good therapists, they know how to get around that stuff. And, they’ll tell you if you’re wasting your time or not. They most of them will that that I know. Right. Because, for example, couples therapy sessions can help partners learn new ways to listen and resolve conflict, but both have to be there.

00;23;19;22 – 00;23;42;12
Doreen
So if one refuses to participate, the other might decide that filing for divorce is the only way to stop the ongoing harm, which is the insanity. Right? Right. And both partners must, you know, they must try the other approaches and accept that separation may be necessary to end that cycle. Yeah, but I don’t think both need to be involved in that.

00;23;42;12 – 00;24;03;13
Doreen
Sometimes you just have to make a decision to file. Right. And be careful of that trap. The I’m going to change, I’m going to be better. Everything’s going to be wonderful because I think that’s a cycle, too, meaning that sometimes you get so strong and you file for the divorce because nothing’s changing. But then your ex, soon to be ex, pulls you back in.

00;24;03;16 – 00;24;30;27
Jeff
Oh no, I’m listening now. I’m listening now. I promise I’ll give, you know. Is that a cycle or is that coming from a place of honesty and truth? You’ll know the answer to that if you dig deep. Right? Right. Now, let’s talk about. That’s for, marriage is let’s talk about tips for divorcing couples. Yeah. Well, separating emotional recovery from legal matters is key, right?

00;24;30;28 – 00;25;00;07
Doreen
You know, I know that’s your big on that. That’s what the most divorces cost money because of emotions. Yeah I mean I would say most yeah I mean there are there are legit issues right. Like valuing a big business or something. And there’s legit emotions. I mean there are. Right. I mean there’s, emotions that are to be expected, but I think it’s really important to recognize that if you’re in that emotional insanity in the divorce process, you need some help.

00;25;00;10 – 00;25;26;17
Doreen
Go to your support groups, go to a therapist, come see me or Jeff is a life coach, right? We coach plenty of people going through a divorce separate from legal, representation. So, you know, you want to get all those resources in place, because if you a lot of people will say, well, but I don’t have the money to do this, but you’re going to spend more in fees, you’re going to save money.

00;25;26;17 – 00;25;50;01
Doreen
I’d rather you spend your time in therapy with a trained, licensed mental health professional that can help you, or a life coach than to spend money at 625 an hour for me to help you, you know, manage your emotions, right, which I think a lot of divorce lawyers do. And we’re not generally qualified. I’m not a therapist, but I’m certainly a coach.

00;25;50;01 – 00;26;14;06
Doreen
And so I’m more qualified, I believe, than others. I remember one client, that I mentioned to him that when you go see your lawyer, it’s all law business. It’s the law, it’s business, business, business. And then save your emotions for me. And you made a huge shift with him. Big difference. Big difference. Yeah. Because I was, dealing with a lot of the emotional part of it.

00;26;14;09 – 00;26;35;24
Doreen
Because when I’m in the role of lawyer, I don’t I don’t coach, I always coach my clients as a lawyer, but I don’t do specific coaching until after the divorce. Generally. Generally. So yeah, this helps, you know, when you can do that to really focus on the business part of the divorce. But some people take offense to when I say that.

00;26;35;26 – 00;26;56;12
Doreen
Can you imagine? I don’t know why the business of divorce, meaning get the emotions out of it so that we can focus on the the the numbers. I’m not talking about custody, okay? Custody is a whole different issue, but I’m talking most cases in which you’re dealing mostly with financials or numbers. It’s an accounting mechanism. And you apply the law.

00;26;56;14 – 00;27;16;20
Doreen
It’s not just an accounting mechanism. It’s also the law is the law. It tells you it’s like a blueprint. It’s like a blueprint, and you’re figuring it out. Now you can argue over the values and things like this and that makes sense. But anyhow, so or the interpretation of the law. Absolutely. Okay. And then let’s talk about the last part after divorce.

00;27;16;27 – 00;27;47;02
Jeff
Go ahead. Well healing begins by recognizing negative thoughts cycles. So again we talked about awareness. And again recognizing that you’re having those negative thoughts is the beginning part of, you know, beating the cycle. One starts by noticing reoccurring painful thoughts, you know, the feelings that they cause or not a good feeling, and the unhelpful actions that follow.

00;27;47;04 – 00;28;32;13
Doreen
Okay, like isolating oneself or holding grudges. Right. So what I recommend is slow down and breathe. Slow down. Gently shifting thoughts towards acceptance allows positive emotions to grow. You know, focusing on what one can control and setting clear goals. This is post divorce again helps create positive actions leading to healthier outcomes, right? Right. This approach supports moving forward with purpose, benefiting everyone in the family, including your children, your future relationships, your work, and most of all, yourself, yourself, most of all yourself.

00;28;32;13 – 00;29;02;19
Doreen
Which should be number one because you know, if you’re not good, no one else in your life is going to be good. So we get that this is a challenging time. We understand. We both have been through divorces, and we know that the cycle of insanity describes repeated harmful behaviors or thoughts and expecting different results. You know, through the phase of awareness, through the weight, the phase of self-discovery, you can break this the cycle.

00;29;02;21 – 00;29;32;03
Doreen
You can figure out how to move past it and move on to your best life. Sounds like a plan. Yeah. So, I wanted to talk to our listeners about how they can reach us because there’s been some changes on the website. Yes, they’re incorporating life after divorce coaching, which is the podcast, but is also the website into my Yaffe of Family Law group.

00;29;32;03 – 00;30;02;14
Doreen
So it will be a separate page on my websites specifically to coaching. I do not think it’s up at all. If it is up, it’s it’s a temporary page, so please be patient with us. If you are looking for coaching, come explore your options. Jeff will do a complimentary coaching session with you. You. We could talk about today’s subject, my office number, and just go through the prompts and ask for Doreen.

00;30;02;15 – 00;30;29;13
Doreen
Now if you can leave me a voice message at (561) 276-3880. You could also find us on our website. There’s an info tab there, or you can ask a question there and I will get that as well. If you’re interested in coaching you can do that. You could also email me at Doreen period. Your author at Yahoo Family law group.com.

00;30;29;15 – 00;30;58;08
Doreen
Listen, Jeff and I are a prime example of what it can be to get past your divorce, fall in love again, have a beautiful co-parenting relationship. Even like my ex, I won’t talk about his and build a co-parenting relationship, including him. Right? And and move on to a new life, a new chapter that you are proud of and can really appreciate.

00;30;58;10 – 00;31;03;14
Doreen
Have an amazing, blessed week and we’ll talk to you next week. Bye bye!